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Just a random thought on the 'death' of Batman.

In comparison to the death of Captain America, I think that Batman's death in Final Crisis was treated as an afterthought....like he was more of a casualty than someone you would really feel for and have done so for all of these decades.

The treatment of how Marvel did Cap made it feel like you really knew that a serious change was coming to Marvel's books. You could feel the impact.

This, even seeing him is Supes' arms made me feel empty.

Empty because the Batman Morrison and crew doing Final Crisis is not MY Batman.

The Batman the has a renaissance in the late 80's in Frank Miller's books.

The Batman that became a new kind of cool in the first 2 movies

The Batman of the Animated Series

The Batman that in my then waning days of comic collecting made me wait anxiously each month for Tales of the Dark Night.

Also it doesn't help that these NEW books (RIP and Final Crisis) were late coming out either.

Thank you DC for the poor treatment of one of your biggest iconic, legendary(and my personal favorite) heroes.

afroloq wrote:Empty because the Batman Morrison and crew doing Final Crisis is not MY Batman.

The Batman the has a renaissance in the late 80's in Frank Miller's books.

The Batman that became a new kind of cool in the first 2 movies

The Batman of the Animated Series

The Batman that in my then waning days of comic collecting made me wait anxiously each month for Tales of the Dark Night.

Also it doesn't help that these NEW books (RIP and Final Crisis) were late coming out either.

Thank you DC for the poor treatment of one of your biggest iconic, legendary(and my personal favorite) heroes.

To be fair, Batman has been a part a few changes since his debut. He once carried a gun. The years of everything "Bat" (woman, hound, etc.)
An update may be necessary, to bring him down to being an ordinary man again (w/ flaws).

Adam West Batman was different.

Michael Keaton Batman was change (is this the "first two movies" reference?)

afroloq wrote: Thank you DC for the poor treatment of one of your biggest iconic, legendary(and my personal favorite) heroes.

I completely disagree. Batman was given a fine send off. Morrison's entire run was leading up to that moment in Final Crisis #6. In "R.I.P.", Batman overcame an intense psychological attack from the Black Glove. In "Last Rites", we got an overview of Batman's 70 year career and saw him use his own memories as a weapon against The Lump. In Final Crisis #6, he severely wounded a God that is the embodiment of evil and hopelessness. Batman was born with a gunshot and he died with a gunshot. He sacrificed his life to save the human race. He went out proving that he was the ultimate human and the ultimate hero.

Koete wrote: I completely disagree. Batman was given a fine send off. Morrison's entire run was leading up to that moment in Final Crisis #6. In "R.I.P.", Batman overcame an intense psychological attack from the Black Glove. In "Last Rites", we got an overview of Batman's 70 year career and saw him use his own memories as a weapon against The Lump. In Final Crisis #6, he severely wounded a God that is the embodiment of evil and hopelessness. Batman was born with a gunshot and he died with a gunshot. He sacrificed his life to save the human race. He went out proving that he was the ultimate human and the ultimate hero.

I have to disagree. Batman (for a long time) has shown real disdain for using guns (arguments about his 30s/40s roots to the side here). Batman using a gun (even a weird sci-fi one) on Darkseid seemed to be a really poor choice for the character.

BTW, he shot Darkseid in the shoulder, I'd have liked to see a more definitive kill-shot, at least hitting the target in center-of-mass. Seems like his disdain for guns gave him pretty crappy aim......

YMMV, but I thought it was a really weak send off to the character, and I look forward to when DC brings him back in a few years, since nobody stays dead.

BobBretall wrote: I have to disagree. Batman (for a long time) has shown real disdain for using guns (arguments about his 30s/40s roots to the side here). Batman using a gun (even a weird sci-fi one) on Darkseid seemed to be a really poor choice for the character.

BTW, he shot Darkseid in the shoulder, I'd have liked to see a more definitive kill-shot, at least hitting the target in center-of-mass. Seems like his disdain for guns gave him pretty crappy aim......

YMMV, but I thought it was a really weak send off to the character, and I look forward to when DC brings him back in a few years, since nobody stays dead.

I have to counter disagree. There's a big difference between using a gun to shoot a criminal or super-criminal and using it to shoot a God. It would be ridiculous for Batman to pass up the opportunity to end Darkseid's reign of evil because he has a code against using guns. For Batman to stand around and do nothing when he has the means to do something would have been a poor character choice. And I'm pretty sure he shot Darkseid in the shoulder with the hope that there is a possibility that Turpin would survive Darkseid's possession.

Regardless of if Batman should have used the gun or not (and I see both sides of that issue), he should have hit *exactly* what he aimed at. It has been established that Batman is a marksman and knows precisely how to handle guns even though he opts not to use them in combat.

Maybe he wanted to wing Darkseid in the shoulder. As Chris asserts, this would MAYBE allow Turpin to return, but that seems REALLY sketchy to me.

He's trying to "save the universe", so he's going to go with a shoulder hit & just hope that the bullet works it's magic thru Darkseid's system? That's weak.

If I was going to go against all that is holy to me and use a gun against a "god" to save the universe, I think I'd go for a kill-shot.

Right in the eye......

You know...it's almost as bad as how Kirk died in Star Trek: Generations.

Being that Darkseid used the Omega Sanction on him, is there any reason to believe Batman is dead anyway? Even in the impermanent comic book sense?

Mr. Miracle once escaped the Omega Sanction--so, to me, it stands to reason that Batman can/did escape it as well.

BobBretall wrote:Maybe he wanted to wing Darkseid in the shoulder. As Chris asserts, this would MAYBE allow Turpin to return, but that seems REALLY sketchy to me.

He's trying to "save the universe", so he's going to go with a shoulder hit & just hope that the bullet works it's magic thru Darkseid's system? That's weak.

If I was going to go against all that is holy to me and use a gun against a "god" to save the universe, I think I'd go for a kill-shot.

Right in the eye......

But then the story would have ended with issue 6

zack kruse wrote:Being that Darkseid used the Omega Sanction on him, is there any reason to believe Batman is dead anyway? Even in the impermanent comic book sense?

Mr. Miracle once escaped the Omega Sanction--so, to me, it stands to reason that Batman can/did escape it as well.

Given that the Omega Sanction seems to have only appeared that Mister Miracle miniseries and the "regular" Omega Effect usually kills people, yeah, I think most people are thinking that Batman is dead. At least as dead as comic book characters ever get. And the group that Batman hangs out with (the JLA) is filled with people that have come back from the dead (Superman, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Wonder Woman, Flash and Hawkman to name a few).

I'll admit to being a bit frustrated that Grant Morrison and DC seem to expect us to know and go with all of these references to his past work while simultaneously ignoring any and all other DC comics that don't jive with Final Crisis.

JohnMayo wrote: Given that the Omega Sanction seems to have only appeared that Mister Miracle miniseries and the "regular" Omega Effect usually kills people, yeah, I think most people are thinking that Batman is dead. At least as dead as comic book characters ever get. And the group that Batman hangs out with (the JLA) is filled with people that have come back from the dead (Superman, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Wonder Woman, Flash and Hawkman to name a few).

I'll admit to being a bit frustrated that Grant Morrison and DC seem to expect us to know and go with all of these references to his past work while simultaneously ignoring any and all other DC comics that don't jive with Final Crisis.

To be fair to Morrison, Darkseid does refer to it as "the death that is life". Maybe not the clearest description of what it is, but it does strongly hint that Batman's death is not a simple one. And Morrison as referenced his past work with every DC book he's done. I don't see why Final Crisis should be any different, especially if the book he's referencing is about the New Gods, which are major players in Final Crisis.

JohnMayo wrote:

zack kruse wrote:Being that Darkseid used the Omega Sanction on him, is there any reason to believe Batman is dead anyway? Even in the impermanent comic book sense?

Mr. Miracle once escaped the Omega Sanction--so, to me, it stands to reason that Batman can/did escape it as well.

Given that the Omega Sanction seems to have only appeared that Mister Miracle miniseries and the "regular" Omega Effect usually kills people, yeah, I think most people are thinking that Batman is dead. At least as dead as comic book characters ever get. And the group that Batman hangs out with (the JLA) is filled with people that have come back from the dead (Superman, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Wonder Woman, Flash and Hawkman to name a few).

I'll admit to being a bit frustrated that Grant Morrison and DC seem to expect us to know and go with all of these references to his past work while simultaneously ignoring any and all other DC comics that don't jive with Final Crisis.

Right, and that makes sense. All I'm saying is that it wasn't the regular Omega Effect and Darkseid said as much when he blasted Batman.

Don't get me wrong though...I'm not defending the decision to use it in the story or the lack of anything even as small as an editor's note to let readers know where they can learn about the Omega Sanction. I'm just saying that, since, per accepted DC cannon, it is different than the regular Omega Effect and does not necessarily kill the victim, I don't see a reason to believe Batman is dead...even in the impermanent comic book sense like many of his JLA counterparts once were. Rather, he's displaced and has to escape from the dimension he has been trapped in to his own.

Koete wrote:

JohnMayo wrote: Given that the Omega Sanction seems to have only appeared that Mister Miracle miniseries and the "regular" Omega Effect usually kills people, yeah, I think most people are thinking that Batman is dead. At least as dead as comic book characters ever get. And the group that Batman hangs out with (the JLA) is filled with people that have come back from the dead (Superman, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Wonder Woman, Flash and Hawkman to name a few).

I'll admit to being a bit frustrated that Grant Morrison and DC seem to expect us to know and go with all of these references to his past work while simultaneously ignoring any and all other DC comics that don't jive with Final Crisis.

To be fair to Morrison, Darkseid does refer to it as "the death that is life". Maybe not the clearest description of what it is, but it does strongly hint that Batman's death is not a simple one. And Morrison as referenced his past work with every DC book he's done. I don't see why Final Crisis should be any different, especially if the book he's referencing is about the New Gods, which are major players in Final Crisis.

I don't mind him referencing his past work. I mind him referencing only his past work while telling us to disregard anything written by others that doesn't mess with his work.

If there were footnotes reminding us of this Mister Miracle series from three or four years ago, then I might be a little more accepting of this. Maybe.

As for "the death that is life" bit, Morrison likes to toss out catch phrases like that. He did it a number of times in Final Crisis #6. Instead of explaining himself, he seems to be relying on those as a writing crutch to let readers explain away the nonsensical aspects of the story.

zack kruse wrote:

JohnMayo wrote:

zack kruse wrote:Being that Darkseid used the Omega Sanction on him, is there any reason to believe Batman is dead anyway? Even in the impermanent comic book sense?

Mr. Miracle once escaped the Omega Sanction--so, to me, it stands to reason that Batman can/did escape it as well.

Given that the Omega Sanction seems to have only appeared that Mister Miracle miniseries and the "regular" Omega Effect usually kills people, yeah, I think most people are thinking that Batman is dead. At least as dead as comic book characters ever get. And the group that Batman hangs out with (the JLA) is filled with people that have come back from the dead (Superman, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Wonder Woman, Flash and Hawkman to name a few).

I'll admit to being a bit frustrated that Grant Morrison and DC seem to expect us to know and go with all of these references to his past work while simultaneously ignoring any and all other DC comics that don't jive with Final Crisis.

Right, and that makes sense. All I'm saying is that it wasn't the regular Omega Effect and Darkseid said as much when he blasted Batman.

Don't get me wrong though...I'm not defending the decision to use it in the story or the lack of anything even as small as an editor's note to let readers know where they can learn about the Omega Sanction. I'm just saying that, since, per accepted DC cannon, it is different than the regular Omega Effect and does not necessarily kill the victim, I don't see a reason to believe Batman is dead...even in the impermanent comic book sense like many of his JLA counterparts once were. Rather, he's displaced and has to escape from the dimension he has been trapped in to his own.

By that logic (and I'm not saying you are wrong, simply that the line of reasoning leads in interesting directions), then the "lateral universe" that Sonny Sumo is from isn't one of the 52 parallel dimensions in the multiverse but something else entirely.

I have no idea what the "Graviton Superhighway" is... Or the "Black Gambit", the "Omega Offensive" or "Lord Eye" (presumably some relation to Brother Eye?)

Given that Morrison is using phrases like "lateral universe" where the more standard phrase of "parallel universe" might be used, how are we to know that this new Darkseid isn't just giving a fancier name to the old Omega Effect?

Morrison isn't writing an accessible story and has even admitted to that. So if people get confused between Darkseid's much more common "Omega Effect" and the used-only-once-before "Omega Sanction" then can you really blame them?

As for "accepted DC cannon" there is much to be said about that. I would count things like Countdown to Final Crisis and The Death of the New Gods as part of that "accepted DC cannon" while Morrison has clearly stated that he does not and has ignored those events. That kind of kills the notion that we are dealing with any sort of "accepted DC cannon" with Final Crisis.

Either Morrison is leveraging the backstory of the DC Universe, including the good, the bad and the stuff he didn't write, or he isn't. In either case, the story is needlessly convoluted and, for me, failing spectacularly as a DC Crisis level event.