www.ComicBookPage.com

I've been preaching the benefits of mainstream advertising for YEARS (and I have been mocked that it will never happen).

http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18068

Well, it looks like Marvel is doing a push and I applaud them for the effort.[/url] As comic fans, they already have us... now it is time to go after the unwashed, geek wanna be masses who just need a little direction.

If you want to see the actual ad, look no further (I'm sure it'll be edited down)...

http://link.brightcove.com/services/lin ... 1799063500"]http://link.brightcove.com/services/lin ... 1799063500


OK, though I am happy that Marvel is putting out the time and effort to promote the hobby we love, they DO drop the ball on the simplest point.... Where do I buy this?

I have said in the past that all that needs to be done is to have the 1-888-comicshop icon/bug describing where an interested party can find the product... but alas they left it out again. When Spidey 3 came out Marvel included reprints of older Spider-man stories in Sunday editions of major national newspapers... but never said where you can go to BUY MORE.

Arghhhh.


the Tiki

Just for the record, I wasn't mocking you nor was I saying it would never happen. My point was that there were a number of obstacles making it a great idea but an inherently challenging one. We were all in agreement that mainstream advertising of comics would be a great thing.

For mainstream advertising of comics to work a number of things need to fall into place. As you mentioned, where this one fell short of the mark was on the where to buy aspect. Further, this was another case of retailers being caught unaware and therefore unable to plan out how best to leverage the marketing.

Also, if I recall correctly, on the Previews call you were suggesting that a publisher take out an ad in Entertainment Weekly. Certainly such an ad would be likely to attract new readers to comics and that would be a godo thing. I think we all agreed on that.

According to the EW.com website a full page B&W ad would run $121,005. A full page color ad would be $151,255. One of points that some of us were trying to make is that such an ad would simply be way too expensive for most publishers to even consider.

In August, only two comics (Secret Invasion #5 and Final Crisis #3) made enough for the publisher to cover the cost of a full page color ad in Entertainment Weekly. Only two others (New Avengers #44 and Batman #679) would have covered the cost of a black and white full page ad in Entertainment Weekly.

Obviously those theoretical full page ads would have promoted much more than a single comic but this illustrates that the cost of a full page ad in a magazine like Entertainment Weekly is exceedingly high compared to the total amount of money a publisher makes of a single top selling comic book issue.

Marketing comics to the mainstream is worth doing. But you suggestion buying full page ads in mainstream magazines like Entertainment Weekly is simply not financially sound. This isn't a matter of spending money to make money. It is a matter of having to spend an exceedingly large amount of money to possible make a little bit more money than would be made without the ad. Doing so would be financially irresponsible.

All right, I got some homework for ya...

Please post the numbers of:

Daredevil's Sales, before Kevin smith took over and then after he took over

Green Arrow's sales before Kevin Smith took over and after he took over

Do that and then I'll make the point (I'm being a tease here).


the Tiki

thefreakytiki wrote:All right, I got some homework for ya...

Please post the numbers of:

Daredevil's Sales, before Kevin smith took over and then after he took over

Green Arrow's sales before Kevin Smith took over and after he took over

Do that and then I'll make the point (I'm being a tease here).


the Tiki

If only someone had this information somewhere on the web in a convenient chart format. Oh, wait, I do...

Daredevil:
http://comicbookpage.com/SalesEstimates ... =Daredevil

Green Arrow:
http://comicbookpage.com/SalesEstimates ... en%20Arrow

(Note that Green Arrow #15 was resolicited twice. Since this was during the pre-order era it was on the charts three times:
2002-05: 74,400
2002-06: 72,400
2002-07: 71,800
I haven't had time to rework the charting section of my website to use the newer version of the database I run locally or to properly deal with reorders during the pre-order era.

The number of 144,200 for 15 (Res) is a combination of the two entries from 2002-06 and 2002-07. The actual sales for the issue were 71,800.)

Daredevil went from around 25,500-26,500 to 91,700 with the new #1 and then 82,800 with #2. It hovered between 79,600 to 86,000 for Kevin Smith's initial eight issue run. So it easily tripled in sales. But this had more to do with Kevin smith replacing writers like Joe Kelly, Scott Lobdell and D. G. Chichester and getting a new #1.

I don't recall there being a full page ad for Daredevil in Entertainment Weekly when Kevin Smith relaunched the title.

Green Arrow went from 26,100 to 34,500 to 85,000 with #1 and ranged between 69,000 to 91,800 during his 15 issue run. Again, the title basically tripled in sales during his run as compared to the previous series written by chuck Dixon.

I don't recall there being a full page ad for Green Arrow in Entertainment Weekly when Kevin Smith relaunched the title.

All this does is prove that relaunching a title with a writer like Kevin Smith can dramatically improve sales over issues written by people like Chuck Dixon, Joe Kelly, Scott Lobdell and D. G. Chichester. While the relaunches were indeed marketed, the bump in sales has more to do with the relaunching with a #1 and the new creative team than being due to just a marketing push.

The discussion at hand was on if doing ads in mainstream magazines would be cost effective or not. Had we seen a tripling in sales due to a major marketing push with the existing creative teams, that would be much more impressive. As it stands, replacing a "normal" comic book creator with Kevin Smith who could easily literally be considered a household name was likely to increase awareness and sales of the titles regardless of any marketing push.

johnmayo wrote:
...I don't recall there being a full page ad for Daredevil in Entertainment Weekly when Kevin Smith relaunched the title....


...I don't recall there being a full page ad for Green Arrow in Entertainment Weekly when Kevin Smith relaunched the title.



The discussion at hand was on if doing ads in mainstream magazines would be cost effective or not. Had we seen a tripling in sales due to a major marketing push with the existing creative teams, that would be much more impressive.

Here's where I prove my point, You didn't see an ad in Entertainment Weekly... but they were all over Rolling Stone Magazine for both. Not articles... but 1/2 page ads

Marketing works. Tell people What your selling and where your selling it and they'll come. I will search out the ads and see if I can find them somewhere on the net. I'm not a magazine saver or else I would just scan it in (says the guy with 85 long boxes of comics).


(Sorry to make you do the footwork... I still have trouble figuring out how to use the database. That's my fault. )


the Tiki

thefreakytiki wrote:

johnmayo wrote:
...I don't recall there being a full page ad for Daredevil in Entertainment Weekly when Kevin Smith relaunched the title....


...I don't recall there being a full page ad for Green Arrow in Entertainment Weekly when Kevin Smith relaunched the title.



The discussion at hand was on if doing ads in mainstream magazines would be cost effective or not. Had we seen a tripling in sales due to a major marketing push with the existing creative teams, that would be much more impressive.

Here's where I prove my point, You didn't see an ad in Entertainment Weekly... but they were all over Rolling Stone Magazine for both. Not articles... but 1/2 page ads

Marketing works. Tell people What your selling and where your selling it and they'll come. I will search out the ads and see if I can find them somewhere on the net. I'm not a magazine saver or else I would just scan it in (says the guy with 85 long boxes of comics).


(Sorry to make you do the footwork... I still have trouble figuring out how to use the database. That's my fault. )


the Tiki

1/2 page color ads for Rolling Stone currently go for $94,730. Black and white 1/2 page ads cost $85,260.

Sales for Daredevil increase from to 91,700. Keep in mind that the #1 was only $2.50 compared to the $2.99 for #380 of the previous series. That works out to a gain of about $61,082.40. Subtract out the cost of the 1/2 page ad in Rolling Stone and you net out to a loss on the first issue. Obviously the marketing pays out in the long term but initially, it is a fairly expensive gamble.

On Green Arrow, the sales jumped from 34,300 with the #1,000,000 issue to 85,000 with the new #1. Both cost $2.50. The net increase for the publisher, at say for the sake of discussion, 40% of the cover price works out to $20,280.00. Again, subtract out the cost of the ad and it takes a couple of issues of increased sales to justify the ad.

In the case of Daredevil, Kevin Smith was off the title after 8 issues. On Green Arrow, he was on until issue #15.


And I think you are still missing the one of the points we were trying to make. We agree that marketing can work. I disagree that it is as simple as "tell people What your selling and where your selling it and they'll come" as that seems way too "Field of Dreams"-ish to me. The question was if the ads paid for themselves and increased profitability.

What you haven't done is proven a cause-effect relationship between the Rolling Stone ads and the increase in sales. A case could be made that the sales on both titles would have gone up about the same amount based solely on the new #1, the change to Kevin Smith writing the titles and, in the case of Daredevil, the lower cover price.


Going back to the Marvel TV spot that triggered this thread, the I've had a chance to watch the commercial and found it to be insanely ineffective. Not only does it not answer the "where to buy" question but it doesn't really answer the "what to buy" question either.

Other cases of a new creative team essentially tripling the sales of a title:

Batman #607 (2002-11): 46,500 (w: Ed Brubaker/Geoff Johns, a: Scott McDaniel)
Batman #608 (2002-12): 120,900 (w: Jepf Loeb, a: Jim Lee)

Iron Fist #6 (2004-10): 18,000 (w: James Mullaney, a: Kevin Lau)
Immortal Iron Fist (2006-11): 49,800 (w: Ed Brubaker/Matt Fraction, a: David Aja/Travel Foreman)

There are probably a few other examples but those were off the top of my head.

I have no idea if there were 1/2 ads in Rolling Stone for those or not. I suspect not.

So your telling me that you don't believe that advertising that Kevin Smith is going to write a comic didn't reintroduce Daredevil or Green Arrow to a group of people who were not currently buying the product?

The advertising can not simply be measured in single issue to issue sales. The profitability is measured over time...

• Do you not think that those people possibly had an effect on OTHER titles sold at the LCS? (i.e. someone discovered/rediscovered Captain America, X-Men or Batman)

• Do you think all of those people left comics when Kevin Smith stopped writing? (The title has yet to sink to the low sales prior to the ad being run... 6 years later)

Now I also believe LCSs need to advertise as well. The ones that do always seem to be more successful than the ones who do not. The more the stay in the spotlight, the more profitable they will be competitors.

A few examples:

Comix Experience: Those Tilting at Windmills articles (and book with collected articles). Do you think Brian Hibbs is doing that as a service to the industry? Heck no. It's a form of advertising.

Isotope: James Sime has a presence on every message board telling every comic's fan how cool his shop is and every new event he is going to have. He took a page out of Brian Hibb's playbook by having an article on CBR called "The Comic's Pimp". Hell he's even embraced technology by Twitter as a form of advertising long before Marvel decided to do the same.

Flying Colors: Joe Field not only created the Marketing boon known as Free Comic Book Day but has given countless examples of how much his business grew after he started running 15 and 30 second commercials locally on the Cartoon Network (If you go to Flying Colors Website you'll see the ads).

DCBS/Instock Trades: Do you think Cameron would be as successful as he is if he didn't sponsor countless podcasts.

See what I mean?


the Tiki

thefreakytiki wrote:So your telling me that you don't believe that advertising that Kevin Smith is going to write a comic didn't reintroduce Daredevil or Green Arrow to a group of people who were not currently buying the product?

No, I'm telling you that I find it very questionable that the money spend on the 1/2 page ads increased the sales of Daredevil and Green Arrow enough beyond the increase caused by the other factors to financially justify the ads.

The advertising can not simply be measured in single issue to issue sales. The profitability is measured over time...

• Do you not think that those people possibly had an effect on OTHER titles sold at the LCS? (i.e. someone discovered/rediscovered Captain America, X-Men or Batman)

• Do you think all of those people left comics when Kevin Smith stopped writing? (The title has yet to sink to the low sales prior to the ad being run... 6 years later)

You still have yet to prove that any of those additional sales were due to the ad. I'm not saying that they aren't but you are basing your case on the claim that they are. There are other cases in which a high profile creator coming on board had boosted sales without the need for an expensive ad.

Now I also believe LCSs need to advertise as well. The ones that do always seem to be more successful than the ones who do not. The more the stay in the spotlight, the more profitable they will be competitors.

A few examples:

Comix Experience: Those Tilting at Windmills articles (and book with collected articles). Do you think Brian Hibbs is doing that as a service to the industry? Heck no. It's a form of advertising.

Isotope: James Sime has a presence on every message board telling every comic's fan how cool his shop is and every new event he is going to have. He took a page out of Brian Hibb's playbook by having an article on CBR called "The Comic's Pimp". Hell he's even embraced technology by Twitter as a form of advertising long before Marvel decided to do the same.

Flying Colors: Joe Field not only created the Marketing boon known as Free Comic Book Day but has given countless examples of how much his business grew after he started running 15 and 30 second commercials locally on the Cartoon Network (If you go to Flying Colors Website you'll see the ads).

DCBS/Instock Trades: Do you think Cameron would be as successful as he is if he didn't sponsor countless podcasts.

See what I mean?


the Tiki

Tim, I am in complete agreement that advertising is a good thing. I'm doing what I can to help spread the word about comics.

advertising mainstream comics on television . great!!
the ad itself . could have used some better cgi.

like rick rememder implied on a recent interview (heard 3 or 4 last week alone)
comics can provide their readers with visually complex scenarios, imaginary yet seamless within their "suspension of disbelief", most of which are practically unattainable on film even today.
these ads could at least hint at that faculty.

its a wonderful first step, it'd be better if the visuals were more convincing/appealing/engaging.

laseraw wrote:advertising mainstream comics on television . great!!
the ad itself . could have used some better cgi.

like rick rememder implied on a recent interview (heard 3 or 4 last week alone)
comics can provide their readers with visually complex scenarios, imaginary yet seamless within their "suspension of disbelief", most of which are practically unattainable on film even today.
these ads could at least hint at that faculty.

its a wonderful first step, it'd be better if the visuals were more convincing/appealing/engaging.

I agree that it was a great idea and that the execution wasn't great.

At first the commercial felt like a bad political ad. Then it mentioned aliens and felt like a bad commercial for a new "Alien Nation" movie. Then it showed what I knew to be Skrulls but that most non comic book readers would know as generic green aliens. Then it ended.

Did it mention Secret Invasion by name?
Did it indicate that it was a commercial for a comic book series?
Did it help point people to places they could find and buy comic books?

It should have done all of that in half the time.

The commercial seemed to be targeted at people who are already familiar with Marvel Comics & Skrulls.

it did little (imo) to provide any kind of info that would be useful to bring in new readers.

I suppose we can gauge the success of the ad based upon an increase in sales.

How many minor league baseball fans have flooded comic shops looking to buy Secret Invasion?

I think the overall viral type marketing plan was good but the execution fell flat. I realized they probably didn't have a big production budget. The old stock video in the TV ad I watched online made it look too amatuerish. There wasn't any obvious call to action as people have said before. Personally, the whole Secrect Invasion crossover event hasn't been doing anything for me. It just seems like it's been done before in movies like They Live or the tv series "V." It's not being done any better in SI.

I would like to have seen Marvel leverage the success of the Iron Man and Hulk movies. If the hundreds of thousands of people (maybe millions) who saw and liked those movies want more stories from those two charcters why not drive them to the comics. Too bad the Hulk comic is so bad right now.