New Comics Priced Over Cover Price

Danscomics · Post by **Danscomics** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:26 am

Trev wrote: Otoh for some reason I don't care if you want to move them over cover on eBay. Still don't have a good idea why that is though.

Ebay is a whole other beast. I feel similar to you, it doesn't bother me if a comic goes above cover as long as it started at or below. I could put the comic up for auction for below cover and it could go over cover, and it's not my fault as the retailer. I'm giving them the option to get it for less but obviously they opted to pay more because they bid higher.

BobBretall · Post by **BobBretall** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:06 am

Agreed. I expect things to sell for over cover on eBay. If a retailer wants to move their up-priced copies on eBay, I have no problem with that......

JasonNewcomb · Post by **JasonNewcomb** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:19 am

I forgot to mention something else.

I wouldn't mind if retailers up priced their books according to ebay going prices if they would do it across the board. So that if a book sells less than cover on ebay they sell it for less on the shelf.

The selective gouging of the customer on certain books is what is very off-putting.

BobBretall · Post by **BobBretall** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:01 am

JasonNewcomb wrote: I wouldn't mind if retailers up priced their books according to ebay going prices if they would do it across the board. So that if a book sells less than cover on ebay they sell it for less on the shelf.

The selective gouging of the customer on certain books is what is very off-putting.

While a retailer is free to do whatever they want, I don't think it would be a good idea to try to mirror eBay across the board. At least I would not frequent them.

If you want eBay pricing, sell on eBay (or somewhere else on-line).

If you run a physical comic shop location, I think you should sell the current books for cover price & then move them up or down from there when they become back issues.

JasonNewcomb · Post by **JasonNewcomb** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:35 pm

Right, I realize that.

The point I'm making (and doing a terrible job of it) is that it's jerk-y to up prices when it's advantageous to you and not pass on any savings to your customer. I feel like I'm being asked to suck them off but they never even bought me dinner.

Gilgabob · Post by **Gilgabob** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:11 pm

I thought the DC relaunch was intended to spark interest in former comic book readers as well as garner the attention of the new reader. If I was a new reader and was finally motivated to seek out a comic shop to buy the "new 52" I keep hearing about and then that same shop has the cover price marked up it this supposed to welcome me to the hobby?

I would be very interested to know how many of these new customers that the shop was able to squeeze a few more dollars out of actually return to that store long term. I can't imagine a successful business that is willing to exchange short term gains for a potential long term customer.

Retailers finally are getting some new traffic in their stores and they upcharge on the new books that have attracted those same new customers in the first place? Justify anyway you want, it's just not smart business.

If a retailer is really that hard up for a few extra bucks, hold back a few issues from your rack and put them up on eBay.

GABE! · Post by **GABE!** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:42 pm

JasonNewcomb wrote:Right, I realize that.

The point I'm making (and doing a terrible job of it) is that it's jerk-y to up prices when it's advantageous to you and not pass on any savings to your customer. I feel like I'm being asked to suck them off but they never even bought me dinner.

The pull list system should prevent you from having to orally please your retailer. Especially with the new 52 books that we've all know about long enough to add to our list to prevent missing the issue.

fudd71 · Post by **fudd71** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:41 pm

BobBretall wrote: Your objections to terminology aside, blaming DC in this case is misplaced, in my opinion.

DC offered a very complete set of incentives to get retailers to up their orders, including offering returnability on many of the titles. That many retailers have misjudged the demand is not DC's fault, and on the in-demand books DC is making 2nd (& 3rd) printings available as quickly as possible.

While I agree that DC did offer plenty of incentives for retailers to up there orders those incentives came with caveats and limits. If I remember correctly (I’m sure someone will let me know if I’m wrong) DC’s incentive in particular with the return-ability of books was on only a percentage over and above previous orders and had a cap. If I am correct while they did do some things to encourage shops to order more books they put quite a few restrictions on how much more they really wanted shops to order. By doing this DC essentially set an expectation that shops should order an exact amount over and above their normal order. Form what I saw in my shop and a couple of other shops I visited in Southern California shops did just what DC asked them to do, they upped their orders by the percentage DC recommended to them and in most cases seemingly slightly more than the recommendation. That is why I think the shops did their part based on the information they had to work with.

Now let us look at a few things I think DC could have done, and probably should have done. As I stated in my first post the sell outs of Justice League and the first week’s books were probably unavoidable. That is the upside of this whole situation, no one seemed to have properly gaged just how successful these re-launched titles and the demand for them was going to be. So far this has been a huge success out preforming anyone’s best hopes. That is why I say there is probably nothing that could have been done for the books that shipped 8/31 and 9/7. However by 9/8 or so it was apparent to anyone that was watching that this was going to be huge and that not enough books had been printed. This is where I think DC could have been more proactive and done something to help.

I don’t remember if it was yesterday or Monday, but DC put out a press release saying all of the new 52 books were sold out. What I think would have been a much better press release, “We realize that there is high demand for our new book and that not enough were initially printed, that is why we took it upon ourselves to have X thousand more already printed and they are available for immediate shipping.” Rather than waiting for books to get to shops and sell out, and then announcing a second printing, taking orders for that second printing, printing to exactly meet the orders for the second printing, distributing the second printing, and going to a third printing; DC could have simply started printing second printings and had them ready to go on or even before the release date of some of the third and fourth week books.

Another thing I think DC could have done was rather than offer these books with return-ability (which was great) they could have distributed them on consignment. With the current overall state of our national economy and the more specific state of comic book retailing, asking shops to up there orders by significant amounts in the hopes that the books will sell and if they don’t you may get a credit on some part of the ones that didn’t in the future is a burden on what I assume is rather small operating capital of the average shop. At the end of the day it is in everyone’s best interest to see these books get into the hands of the most number of people possible, DC and by extension Warner Bros. simply has more operating capital to risk. Again I am taking DC at their word that the goal is to get new readers and keep them. If that is the case this would have been a way to get more copies into stores and possibly avoided some of these shortages. Not only would this have possibly avoided some the supply problems it could have allowed the retailers to possibly lower their gross margins and offer discounts on some of the books again getting more books in to people’s hands. With the current system while the retailer may have been willing to lower their gross margin they couldn’t because they had to be sure to have the money to pay for next week’s shipment.

My last point is about printing to order. It is a slightly ridiculous practice only done by the publishers to protect themselves. Where the practice becomes truly absurd is when the publisher boasts about selling out. When you make the exact amount you have already sold of course you will sell out!!!!!!!!!!! This is no accomplishment, or something to brag about. Announcing these sell outs like they are accomplishments does nothing more than to point out the broken nature of the system.

I had high hopes for DC and the comic industry as a whole when DC announced the re-launch. I hoped that they had a plan to truly reinvent and fix a fairly broken business model. Now that I have seen the books and what’s going on in shops I have lost most of that hope. The only thing that really changed was the number on the front cover, so what? It is the same minuscule story fragments, the same publisher created shortages, the same collector mentality that drives prices up on the hot book of the week. If any publisher really wants to save or grow this industry it will take a lot more changes then simply a number printed on the cover. That number is completely random and meaningless to everyone but the few thousand of us that are already barely keeping this industry alive.

Paul Nolan · Post by **Paul Nolan** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:18 pm

fudd71 wrote: My last point is about printing to order. It is a slightly ridiculous practice only done by the publishers to protect themselves. Where the practice becomes truly absurd is when the publisher boasts about selling out. When you make the exact amount you have already sold of course you will sell out!!!!!!!!!!! This is no accomplishment, or something to brag about. Announcing these sell outs like they are accomplishments does nothing more than to point out the broken nature of the system.

It is a common misconception that comic companies print to order. While the Final Order Cut Off System is the main indicative factor companies ALWAYS overprint to cover damages and reorders.

And if they don't announce the sellouts, how will retailers know they can't reorder a specific edition?

fudd71 · Post by **fudd71** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:31 pm

Paul Nolan wrote: It is a common misconception that comic companies print to order. While the Final Order Cut Off System is the main indicative factor companies ALWAYS overprint to cover damages and reorders.

And if they don't announce the sellouts, how will retailers know they can't reorder a specific edition?

Fair enough, while companies may not print to order, they still print very close to order to cover spoilage rates and maybe a very few reorders. Getting a memo out to your retailers that reorders can’t be made is still very different than putting out self-congratulatory press releases on what is essentially a non-accomplishment.

BobBretall · Post by **BobBretall** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:23 pm

There were lots of 2nd printings on the shelves today of sold-out books from Week 1.

I don't think it's unreasonable for there to be a couple of weeks delay in getting the 2nd printings into stores, especially since people can buy the comics digitally if they really want to read them.

BobBretall · Post by **BobBretall** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:29 pm

fudd71 wrote:]Where the practice becomes truly absurd is when the publisher boasts about selling out. When you make the exact amount you have already sold of course you will sell out!!!!!!!!!!! This is no accomplishment, or something to brag about. Announcing these sell outs like they are accomplishments does nothing more than to point out the broken nature of the system.

There was an over-printing on initial orders, but re-order that came in AFTER the print runs were set and BEFORE the comics went on the rack consumed the over-print.

PLUS, I am seeing a lot of REAL sell-outs of 1st printings of the New 52. There are no more copies on the rack at my LCS.

This is a HUGE difference from the "old" sell-outs that Marvel, Image, Dynamite, IDW and everyone else would regularly brag about, where they were sold out from Diamond, but had stacks & stacks on the racks at comics shops.

The fact that these books seem to be selling through to customers in large numbers is an accomplishment.

Danscomics · Post by **Danscomics** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:32 am

While you have some valid points, there are some flaws in a couple of your points.

fudd71 wrote: Now let us look at a few things I think DC could have done, and probably should have done. As I stated in my first post the sell outs of Justice League and the first week’s books were probably unavoidable. That is the upside of this whole situation, no one seemed to have properly gaged just how successful these re-launched titles and the demand for them was going to be. So far this has been a huge success out preforming anyone’s best hopes. That is why I say there is probably nothing that could have been done for the books that shipped 8/31 and 9/7. However by 9/8 or so it was apparent to anyone that was watching that this was going to be huge and that not enough books had been printed. This is where I think DC could have been more proactive and done something to help.

Diamond and the premiere publishers (Dark Horse, DC, IDW, Image, and Marvel) have a Final Order Cut Off date on all issues. That is the date that we retailers have until to increase or decrease our orders to ensure we get the numbers we order. That date is generally 3 weeks before the issue is released and falls on a Monday. Now the 1 book that was released on 8/31 wasn't a really good gauge at how all 52 of the new #1's would do, so that means the first real indication anyone had at how they would sell would be the ones released on 9/7 sold. By 9/8 all of the new #1s had already passed their final order cutoff date (the 5th was the FOC for the books that shipped this week).

So there was really nothing retailers could do to adjust for the new information from sales other than place what Diamond calls Advance Reorders (which is what Bob was describing).

fudd71 wrote: Another thing I think DC could have done was rather than offer these books with return-ability (which was great) they could have distributed them on consignment. With the current overall state of our national economy and the more specific state of comic book retailing, asking shops to up there orders by significant amounts in the hopes that the books will sell and if they don’t you may get a credit on some part of the ones that didn’t in the future is a burden on what I assume is rather small operating capital of the average shop. At the end of the day it is in everyone’s best interest to see these books get into the hands of the most number of people possible, DC and by extension Warner Bros. simply has more operating capital to risk. Again I am taking DC at their word that the goal is to get new readers and keep them. If that is the case this would have been a way to get more copies into stores and possibly avoided some of these shortages. Not only would this have possibly avoided some the supply problems it could have allowed the retailers to possibly lower their gross margins and offer discounts on some of the books again getting more books in to people’s hands. With the current system while the retailer may have been willing to lower their gross margin they couldn’t because they had to be sure to have the money to pay for next week’s shipment.

I'm not sure consignment is an option due to the way distribution occurs. Sure, if DC sold directly to the comic shops they could do that without a problem. However, DC sells the books to Diamond who then sells them to the comic shops. Diamonds system isn't set up to do consignment, they invoice and charge as soon as they ship the books to me. It would require an overhaul of their whole system to allow for consignment which would be pricey and quite frankly, what is in it for Diamond to do that? Anything that doesn't sell they don't get paid for and all of the man hours to pack and ship those books have to be eaten by Diamond because DC screwed up. While I think it would be great to do, I can see why it isn't possible with the current distribution structure that is in place.

Paul Nolan · Post by **Paul Nolan** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:39 am

Danscomics wrote: I'm not sure consignment is an option due to the way distribution occurs. Sure, if DC sold directly to the comic shops they could do that without a problem. However, DC sells the books to Diamond who then sells them to the comic shops. Diamonds system isn't set up to do consignment, they invoice and charge as soon as they ship the books to me. It would require an overhaul of their whole system to allow for consignment which would be pricey and quite frankly, what is in it for Diamond to do that? Anything that doesn't sell they don't get paid for and all of the man hours to pack and ship those books have to be eaten by Diamond because DC screwed up. While I think it would be great to do, I can see why it isn't possible with the current distribution structure that is in place.

just a minor sidenote..... Diamond UK retailers actually pay DC comics directly with DC comics then giving monies for the distribution to Diamond UK.

can't remember the exact whys and wherefores of it, just that ithey are the only comic company to operate that way through Diamond UK.

fudd71 · Post by **fudd71** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:00 am

Danscomics wrote:While you have some valid points, there are some flaws in a couple of your points.

Diamond and the premiere publishers (Dark Horse, DC, IDW, Image, and Marvel) have a Final Order Cut Off date on all issues. That is the date that we retailers have until to increase or decrease our orders to ensure we get the numbers we order. That date is generally 3 weeks before the issue is released and falls on a Monday. Now the 1 book that was released on 8/31 wasn't a really good gauge at how all 52 of the new #1's would do, so that means the first real indication anyone had at how they would sell would be the ones released on 9/7 sold. By 9/8 all of the new #1s had already passed their final order cutoff date (the 5th was the FOC for the books that shipped this week).

So there was really nothing retailers could do to adjust for the new information from sales other than place what Diamond calls Advance Reorders (which is what Bob was describing).

You are helping illustrate my point everyone is so use to think inside the current model no one is thinking of the possible and ways to improve the model. Its business as usual instead of doing things to help the situation. Even staying is the current system DC could have announced second prints of the week 2-4 books and had order codes to retails for that final cut-off date on 8/12. Doing anything to try and stay ahead of the curve, but they didn’t. It was the same old same old, wait for books to be released and then announce second printings. Too many things were done as business as usual instead of trying to be innovative.

Danscomics wrote:I'm not sure consignment is an option due to the way distribution occurs. Sure, if DC sold directly to the comic shops they could do that without a problem. However, DC sells the books to Diamond who then sells them to the comic shops. Diamonds system isn't set up to do consignment, they invoice and charge as soon as they ship the books to me. It would require an overhaul of their whole system to allow for consignment which would be pricey and quite frankly, what is in it for Diamond to do that? Anything that doesn't sell they don't get paid for and all of the man hours to pack and ship those books have to be eaten by Diamond because DC screwed up. While I think it would be great to do, I can see why it isn't possible with the current distribution structure that is in place.

While Diamond might not be set up to sell on consignment we know DC is, they did it for book sellers on the Watchman TPB around the time the film was coming out. Again this was a time to be innovative and think outside the current system. DC could have gone outside the current system and done for shops what they did for bookseller then.

Both of these points illustrate my point that everyone is to stuck in their old way of thinking. DC said they wanted to revolutionize the current comic market. True innovation and change will only come by thinking outside the box a little, and it would have been nice to see a little more of that type of thinking.