Thoughts about the treatment of Batman **SMALL SPOILERS**

[zack kruse]

Given that the Omega Sanction seems to have only appeared that Mister Miracle miniseries and the "regular" Omega Effect usually kills people, yeah, I think most people are thinking that Batman is dead. At least as dead as comic book characters ever get. And the group that Batman hangs out with (the JLA) is filled with people that have come back from the dead (Superman, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Wonder Woman, Flash and Hawkman to name a few).

I'll admit to being a bit frustrated that Grant Morrison and DC seem to expect us to know and go with all of these references to his past work while simultaneously ignoring any and all other DC comics that don't jive with Final Crisis.

Right, and that makes sense. All I'm saying is that it wasn't the regular Omega Effect and Darkseid said as much when he blasted Batman.

Don't get me wrong though...I'm not defending the decision to use it in the story or the lack of anything even as small as an editor's note to let readers know where they can learn about the Omega Sanction. I'm just saying that, since, per accepted DC cannon, it is different than the regular Omega Effect and does not necessarily kill the victim, I don't see a reason to believe Batman is dead...even in the impermanent comic book sense like many of his JLA counterparts once were. Rather, he's displaced and has to escape from the dimension he has been trapped in to his own.

By that logic (and I'm not saying you are wrong, simply that the line of reasoning leads in interesting directions), then the "lateral universe" that Sonny Sumo is from isn't one of the 52 parallel dimensions in the multiverse but something else entirely.

I have no idea what the "Graviton Superhighway" is... Or the "Black Gambit", the "Omega Offensive" or "Lord Eye" (presumably some relation to Brother Eye?)

Given that Morrison is using phrases like "lateral universe" where the more standard phrase of "parallel universe" might be used, how are we to know that this new Darkseid isn't just giving a fancier name to the old Omega Effect?

Those are all really good questions that I cannot speak to, I only have my suppositions. Like I said before, I'm not arguing against you. I'm only commenting on that which I had direct experience and and understanding of.

Morrison isn't writing an accessible story and has even admitted to that. So if people get confused between Darkseid's much more common "Omega Effect" and the used-only-once-before "Omega Sanction" then can you really blame them?

I completely agree and I'm not blaming anyone at all. Again, just putting it out there that it has been used before and is different.

Trust me, I'm not one of those guys who just assumes that other people don't "get" Morrison--especially when he's being particularly obtuse.

As for "accepted DC cannon" there is much to be said about that. I would count things like Countdown to Final Crisis and The Death of the New Gods as part of that "accepted DC cannon" while Morrison has clearly stated that he does not and has ignored those events. That kind of kills the notion that we are dealing with any sort of "accepted DC cannon" with Final Crisis.

I don't agree that it kills the notion that it kills "accepted DC cannon." Rather, to me, it supports the notion that Morisson uses it when it is convenient for him...although that doesn't take into account any possible editing debacles that may have come along during the time that Countdown was being released and Final Crisis was being written.

Either Morrison is leveraging the backstory of the DC Universe, including the good, the bad and the stuff he didn't write, or he isn't. In either case, the story is needlessly convoluted and, for me, failing spectacularly as a DC Crisis level event.

To me, it's not failing spectacularly because I am enjoying it...moments of confusion and all. But I totally agree with you that, since the beginning, there has been a severe problem with the dissonance between FC and what immediately preceded it.

[JohnMayo]

Those are all really good questions that I cannot speak to, I only have my suppositions. Like I said before, I'm not arguing against you. I'm only commenting on that which I had direct experience and and understanding of.

Understood. And I'm not trying to argue against you either. Both of us are readers of the story, not the author. I respect you and your opinion and don't mean to imply otherwise.

As for pointing out things like the Omega Sanction, please continue to do so. Clearly since the authors of stories like Final Crisis can't be bothered to clue us in on what they've read and consider cannon, we readers need to stick together and puzzle it out for ourselves. And while I read the effectively bimonthly Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle series when it came out years ago, my memory of it wasn't good enough for me to recognize the only-used-once-before Omega Sanction.

Morrison isn't writing an accessible story and has even admitted to that. So if people get confused between Darkseid's much more common "Omega Effect" and the used-only-once-before "Omega Sanction" then can you really blame them?

I completely agree and I'm not blaming anyone at all. Again, just putting it out there that it has been used before and is different.

Trust me, I'm not one of those guys who just assumes that other people don't "get" Morrison--especially when he's being particularly obtuse.

Alas, this is one of those times were I just don't get Morrison. He had an excellent opportunity to tell a wildly successful storyline that shaped the course of the DC Universe for years to come. And he may well have actually done that. But I fear that as a result of this inaccessible storyline that fewer people are going to stick around to check out what DC has in store.

As for "accepted DC cannon" there is much to be said about that. I would count things like Countdown to Final Crisis and The Death of the New Gods as part of that "accepted DC cannon" while Morrison has clearly stated that he does not and has ignored those events. That kind of kills the notion that we are dealing with any sort of "accepted DC cannon" with Final Crisis.

I don't agree that it kills the notion that it kills "accepted DC cannon." Rather, to me, it supports the notion that Morisson uses it when it is convenient for him...although that doesn't take into account any possible editing debacles that may have come along during the time that Countdown was being released and Final Crisis was being written.

Either Morrison is leveraging the backstory of the DC Universe, including the good, the bad and the stuff he didn't write, or he isn't. In either case, the story is needlessly convoluted and, for me, failing spectacularly as a DC Crisis level event.

To me, it's not failing spectacularly because I am enjoying it...moments of confusion and all. But I totally agree with you that, since the beginning, there has been a severe problem with the dissonance between FC and what immediately preceded it.

Final Crisis is out of sync with the DC Universe. While that isn't entirely Morrison's fault (and mainly it is the fault of DC Editorial), some of it is his fault. He is deliberately marching out of formation when it suits him. It makes it hard to tell when he is changing or exapnding the cannon versus just ignoring it.

Take the Billy Batson Captain Marvel over in Final Crisis: Superman Beyond 3D. At first when I was reading the second issue, I thought he was in the wrong costume. But then I remembered that in the first issue which shipped four months ago that it is really the only-seen-before-in-cameos Earth-5 Captain Marvel, not the "regular" Billy Batson Captain Marvel we are used to seeing. Maybe that was mentioned in the second issue but I didn't catch it until double checking the first issue for something else. I was verifying that Apollo from the Authority (or any version of the Authority) wasn't in the storyline. Is it just me or is it kind of strange to have a story centered around The Bleed, a concept introduced in the Authority) starring a bunch of Superman counterparts and not include Apollo?

Morrison playing fast and loose with some elements that are generally considered to be part of of DC continuity and some things that have been clearly removed from continuity before gets a bit confusing. I mean, did Morrison really need to put Merryman and Limbo back into the official continuity? Sure it is nice and metatextual but the actual text itself that Morrison is writing in and around Final Crisis leaves a bit to be desired for a lot of people.

But regardless of who is to blame, how many times can a New God die? Or Batman for that matter?

That in and of itself tossed the notion of an "accepted DC cannon" out the window. And I'm not going to single Morrison out on this. Far too many creators and editors aren't reading what is being published and that seems to be the core problem with continuity. Not only do few creators care about it, few follow the continuity to begin with.

[zack kruse]

But regardless of who is to blame, how many times can a New God die? Or Batman for that matter?

That in and of itself tossed the notion of an "accepted DC cannon" out the window. And I'm not going to single Morrison out on this. Far too many creators and editors aren't reading what is being published and that seems to be the core problem with continuity. Not only do few creators care about it, few follow the continuity to begin with.

We're totally on the same page with the other points that you mentioned, but I think this one is particularly important and applies not just to DC and Final Crisis, but mainstream comics in general.

I agree with you here as well, but it suggests an interesting question. That question being, how can we fix it? What can be done to keep continuity flowing and make stories accessible enough for new(er) or returning readers?

I think one thing that would be positive step in the right direction is editors notes. Some books are going back to this, but I think it would be a big help for a lot of readers new and old. I think another thing that could help is creator/editors--like what Denny O'Neil was for Batman and Daredevil.

Slowing down on the events and making books more autonomous may help as well. Sort of like the pre-Secret Wars days at Marvel--or the current Image/Kirkmanverse stuff.

But this may be better suited for another conversation.

[JohnMayo]

But regardless of who is to blame, how many times can a New God die? Or Batman for that matter?

That in and of itself tossed the notion of an "accepted DC cannon" out the window. And I'm not going to single Morrison out on this. Far too many creators and editors aren't reading what is being published and that seems to be the core problem with continuity. Not only do few creators care about it, few follow the continuity to begin with.

We're totally on the same page with the other points that you mentioned, but I think this one is particularly important and applies not just to DC and Final Crisis, but mainstream comics in general.

I agree with you here as well, but it suggests an interesting question. That question being, how can we fix it? What can be done to keep continuity flowing and make stories accessible enough for new(er) or returning readers?

I think one thing that would be positive step in the right direction is editors notes. Some books are going back to this, but I think it would be a big help for a lot of readers new and old. I think another thing that could help is creator/editors--like what Denny O'Neil was for Batman and Daredevil.

Slowing down on the events and making books more autonomous may help as well. Sort of like the pre-Secret Wars days at Marvel--or the current Image/Kirkmanverse stuff.

But this may be better suited for another conversation.

I agree that footnotes (or end notes) would be a good start as well.

Holding the publishers, editors and creators accountable when they completely disregard continuity seems like a good place to start too. I don't think it is too much to expect the people creating the comics to spend a little time reading them and being familiar with the characters they are working on.

While fewer events and more autonomous titles might help, isn't the Omega Sanction that Grant Morrison used on Batman really, really similar to the dreamworld that he put Batman in for the two issues of Batman after RIP? Those sorts of things can happen even when one person is doing the writing. Adding more writers and titles into the mix certainly complicates things but the core problem here is weak editing.

[afroloq]

Being that Darkseid used the Omega Sanction on him, is there any reason to believe Batman is dead anyway? Even in the impermanent comic book sense?

Mr. Miracle once escaped the Omega Sanction--so, to me, it stands to reason that Batman can/did escape it as well.

Well see this is my overall problem with death in comics and how they are treated now.

Characters die and you already know that somehow they will come back because it's being done all the time now. Back in the 70's and 80's when characters died...they stayed dead.

Truth be told...the last character death that shocked me and I mean truly shocked me....

KRAVEN

and as far as I know...he has NOT come back.

and that was 1987.

The suddeness and the brutalness of his suicide jolted me and so far I ma glad that the writers at Marvel have left his rest undisturbed and not found some corny mystical way to bring him back from his splattering his brain all over the place and in all actuality, I wish they would go back to doing the same with any character they decide to kill.

I mean comics are like lizards, cut off an appendage and eventually it grows back and sometimes it's not the same...

Death in comics if they had more permanent affects, would be like real life, you learn how to cope, fill in and deal with the loss of that character.

This is why I am not so pressed about Batman's death because altho DC will find a way to fill in for Bruce Wayne...NOBODY can be Batman BUT Bruce Wayne so they are almost forced in a way to eventually find a way to bring him back.

As an aside: Let's look at the parallel in real life....there is not going to be another that can breathe life into the Joker liek heath Ledger did...anything else will be a lesser shade of the real deal.

Back to my point: One of the reasons why Capt. America is doing well post Steve Rogers is because what Marvel has done afterwards with showing how others in the MU has to cope with his death and move on without him especially Bucky taking up the mantle. Ask any comic reader right now and I can guess there will be a nice even split as to those who want Steve to stay dead or those who want to see him come back.

It's not just marketing, it's also good story telling and not all stories are meant to have a happy ending.

[BobBretall]

Truth be told...the last character death that shocked me and I mean truly shocked me....

KRAVEN

and as far as I know...he has NOT come back.

and that was 1987.

The suddeness and the brutalness of his suicide jolted me and so far I ma glad that the writers at Marvel have left his rest undisturbed and not found some corny mystical way to bring him back from his splattering his brain all over the place.....

Well, they have not brought him back YET. I think being a fairly minor villain helps him stay dead, but them minute they think they can make a $ in telling a "Kraven back from the dead" story, they will.

Death in comics if they had more permanent affects, would be like real life, you learn how to cope, fill in and deal with the loss of that character.

I agree, but also think it's not likely to happen the way comics are today. Just like I wish they would stop making so many variant covers, but that is not likely to stop anytime soon either, as long as people buy them.

I also think deaths would have more meaning if most fans didn't just take the attitude "Meh, he'll be alive again sooner or later, nobody stays dead in comics.", but Marvel & DC have kind of painted themselves into a corner with their past behavior on this one.

People buy the deaths, people buy the rebirths. And so it goes.

Back to my point: One of the reasons why Capt. America is doing well post Steve Rogers is because what Marvel has done afterwards with showing how others in the MU has to cope with his death and move on without him especially Bucky taking up the mantle. Ask any comic reader right now and I can guess there will be a nice even split as to those who want Steve to stay dead or those who want to see him come back.

It's not just marketing, it's also good story telling and not all stories are meant to have a happy ending.

Yeah, but they WILL bring Steve Rogers back. I'm going to guess his resurrection will roughly correspond to when sales start to get too low on the Bucky-Cap.

[afroloq]

Well, they have not brought him back YET. I think being a fairly minor villain helps him stay dead, but them minute they think they can make a $ in telling a "Kraven back from the dead" story, they will.

GGRRrrr....let's hope not because the way they have been 'retelling' some of his stories lately, I got a bad feeling that light will come on.

I agree, but also think it's not likely to happen the way comics are today. Just like I wish they would stop making so many variant covers, but that is not likely to stop anytime soon either, as long as people buy them.

I also think deaths would have more meaning if most fans didn't just take the attitude "Meh, he'll be alive again sooner or later, nobody stays dead in comics.", but Marvel & DC have kind of painted themselves into a corner with their past behavior on this one.

People buy the deaths, people buy the rebirths. And so it goes.

Agreed...but it's a circle....we get desensitized to the deaths BECAUSE we know writers will find a way to bring them back...sort of the same cop out they used in the One More Day/Brand New Day storylines with Aunt May.

Rather than make the tough decision of taking what is most meaningful to Peter away, Marvel messes up the whole continuum...me, I am of the frame of mind, make the hard choice and truth be told, Aunt May should have been gone a long time ago, giving a good writer the opportunity and challenge of writing a good story of how Peter moves on beyond her passing, heck it's how we get to see characters mature and grow because leaving people around like that, I think stunts their growth.

Yeah, but they WILL bring Steve Rogers back. I'm going to guess his resurrection will roughly correspond to when sales start to get too low on the Bucky-Cap.

Oh we know that and of course they will have to work as extra hard as possible to explain it not to mention, right now Brubaker and co. IMO are doing a good job showing how EVERYONE is picking up the peices after Steve was killed.


SO Let me pose a question to the board...if you could pick one and ONLY one character to kill permanently meaning no future writers could come in and bring that character back who would it be?

What would you do to hopefully ensure that the character never comes back into the continuum?

How would you fill in that hole?


....I think this would probably make a good podcast topic...hehe

[HipHopHead]

Would it fair to say, "only Geoff Johns could bring back Kraven."? (I know Brubaker has scripted a plausible story for Bucky, but Johns is Resurrection Man)

Regarding Captain America: Has Marvel lost the rights to have "Steve Rogers" as Captain America? I seem to recall some lawsuit brought up by the estate of the creators (Kirby & Simon) of Captain America.

[Wood]

Would it fair to say, "only Geoff Johns could bring back Kraven."? (I know Brubaker has scripted a plausible story for Bucky, but Johns is Resurrection Man)

No, not at all. For one, Johns is much more a DC fanboy than Marvel. While I'm sure he can [and did] craft some OK Marvel tales, he's an expert in DC history and works his magic there.

Regarding Captain America: Has Marvel lost the rights to have "Steve Rogers" as Captain America? I seem to recall some lawsuit brought up by the estate of the creators (Kirby & Simon) of Captain America.

Nah, Steve Rogers are Cap hasn't really left the building. Think about Captain America: White or the recent Cap WWII one shot or Avengers/Invaders; they still use the character in new material all the time.