I listen to quite a few podcasts and yours is by far the least spoilerific one I listen to. You guys go out of your way to speak in vagaries when talking about comics. To me, a listener is accepting a slight risk when listening to comic related podcasts. Similarly, there is risk in reading comics news related websites. I have dropped certain podcasts because the hosts cared little for spoiling things even when the spoiler could easily been talked around. To spoil things carelessly is what bothers me.
You guys are fine in my book.
Weekly Comic Spotlight
Moderator: JohnMayo
That much of a burden? No, but a burden non-the-less.JohnMayo wrote:Given all it takes it to ask if someone has seen/read something before spoiling it, it doesn't seem like that much of a burden.Perry wrote:I am just saying that after that many years of a product being released, it shouldn't be on me to watch who I am talking to or what I am talking about.
Again, I am not talking about lack of respect and just throwing spoilers out there. I am NOT saying that if you are in a SPIDER-MAN thread that you should be subject to FANTASTIC FOUR spoilers, but if you are in a Spidey thread and get hit with spoilers from a Spidey issue from 2 years ago, that is on you, the reader.
What I am saying is it should not always be on the people that have taking the time to read or see or listen to what ever the subject is, to self edit after a certain amount of time. Why must responsibility always be on others? If you chose not to get the item in question, is that our fault?
I buy the WALING DEAD in hardcover, I never read the floppies, I am always at least a year behind what everyone else, that buy monthly or even in trades, has read. If I go to a Walking Dead thread, or if I see those words "Walking" and "Dead", should it not be my fault that I chose to go into that thread or keep reading when I see the signs around me? Should I blame others for talking about something that is clearly marked as something I may have not read?
And at the same time, as I chose to read WALKING DEAD in that manner, are spoilers not a known risk I take by doing so? And thus, my own problem? I think if I get hit with spoilers, that is on me.
Am not sure how my stance has evolved from me thinking that the readers/listeners/watchers have a share of the responsibility into me thinking that spoilers are okay?
Fair enough. I agree that the burden should be shared between the various parties. But for that to happen, the person who might have things spoiled needs a chance to prevent the spoilers. When I'm in a conversation at work about a movie I haven't seen but plan to see, I try to state that and my preferences for no spoilers clearly. Some people respect that, some don't. I prefer those that do.Perry wrote:That much of a burden? No, but a burden non-the-less.
It is interesting that as comic book fans; seemingly we have come full circle. I grew up constantly having to argue that comics could indeed be both “real” literature and art. However, in both the cases of art and literature a great deal of the legitimacy comes from the scholarly work and critiques of the works. This idea of cultural relevance making discussion of the work off limits is dangerous. Many of the great works of English literature continue to have new people coming to them. Hopefully they will continue to for many centuries to come as well. However in many cases those things have been “spoiled”. Works by men like Shakespeare, Dickens and Twain continue to be relevant and attract new fans yet many people know the twists and turns in those stories long before they read them. In many ways it is hard not to know, there are many nuances of our language and culture based on reference to the “classics”.
We are born into a world where to be regarded as even somewhat intelligent you should have the understanding of terms like:
“a fool’s paradise”
“a foregone conclusion”
“a horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse”
“a plague on both your houses”
“what’s in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet”
“all that glitters is not gold”
“all’s well that ends well”
“dead as a doornail”
“beware the ides of March”
“discretion is the better part of valor”
“fight fire with fire”
“green eyed monster”
“pound of flesh”
“star crossed lovers”
“up in arms”
These phrases are all from Shakespeare works (you get the point I don’t need to list all of them or ones from others), and in some cases could be said to spoil parts of the story. Yet most of us know and use them even before we read the work, or in many cases have never read the work (a great tragedy in my opinion).
My point being that the more things creep into the culture norm and get discussed the more seriously they are taken. As comic fans we should encourage as much open discussion of the “great comic works” as possible, not put a moratorium on discussion, particularly of “classic” works like Watchmen. Hopefully Walking Dead will some day be thought of in similar terms and banning dialogue won’t help that happen.
We are born into a world where to be regarded as even somewhat intelligent you should have the understanding of terms like:
“a fool’s paradise”
“a foregone conclusion”
“a horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse”
“a plague on both your houses”
“what’s in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet”
“all that glitters is not gold”
“all’s well that ends well”
“dead as a doornail”
“beware the ides of March”
“discretion is the better part of valor”
“fight fire with fire”
“green eyed monster”
“pound of flesh”
“star crossed lovers”
“up in arms”
These phrases are all from Shakespeare works (you get the point I don’t need to list all of them or ones from others), and in some cases could be said to spoil parts of the story. Yet most of us know and use them even before we read the work, or in many cases have never read the work (a great tragedy in my opinion).
My point being that the more things creep into the culture norm and get discussed the more seriously they are taken. As comic fans we should encourage as much open discussion of the “great comic works” as possible, not put a moratorium on discussion, particularly of “classic” works like Watchmen. Hopefully Walking Dead will some day be thought of in similar terms and banning dialogue won’t help that happen.
I think there is a big difference between a good turn of phrase and a major plot point. None of those phrases you listed seems like plot spoilers to me.fudd71 wrote:These phrases are all from Shakespeare works (you get the point I don’t need to list all of them or ones from others), and in some cases could be said to spoil parts of the story.
I think it depends on the work being discussed and when it is discussed. Both the plays of Shakespeare and Watchmen are completed works. They can subsequently by judged by the totality of the work. With works that are still in progress, it seems premature to crank up the critiques. If we stand over the sculptor after he only finishes half the statue, is our critique going to be fair of the whole work? I am not sure where you would take the natural break point to consider the work "whole." You could say a single issue but if we take TV as our guide, they normally go by the season. I don't think comics have season per say but probably you would want to go by creative team or storyline.fudd71 wrote: My point being that the more things creep into the culture norm and get discussed the more seriously they are taken. As comic fans we should encourage as much open discussion of the “great comic works” as possible, not put a moratorium on discussion, particularly of “classic” works like Watchmen. Hopefully Walking Dead will some day be thought of in similar terms and banning dialogue won’t help that happen.
I would be surprised if there were not scholarly dissertations on Watchmen by the boatload currently. I would encourage Bob and John to reflect on how comics are a mirror of the nature of human existence or other larger points derived from the art form. However that is different (not better or worse) from speculating on where the current storyline is going or turns in the story you would like to see.
I think some comics are great works of art just like some plays, novels etc. However not all plays, comics or novels are created equally. Shakespeare had plenty of competition back in the day but we are reading his and not all those other guys. For me part of the criteria is the test of time, which is a standard that cannot be applied quickly. Others might be able to instantly identify the greats but I think time allows needed perspective.
LA Rabbit
JohnMayo wrote: I think there is a big difference between a good turn of phrase and a major plot point. None of those phrases you listed seems like plot spoilers to me.
I agree there is a difference between being a wordsmith and spoilers. However some of these phrases definitely contain spoilers.
“the pound of flesh whish I demand of him is deerly bought, ‘tis mine, and I will have it” This is a key plot point in ‘Merchant of Venice’ and just knowing this does give something away. This is the singular motivation for Shylock.
“beware the ides of March” and “Et tu, Brute” are key points to 'Julius Caesar' particularly if you don’t know the ending of the story. We don’t think of them as spoilers because we all know how it ends, but if you know nothing the phrases give away the ending and who the traitor is (this would be great plot twist if you didn’t already know, but we all do).
“a plague on both your houses” really does give away the ending of 'Romeo and Juliet'. To be fair it was meant too, it foreshows the ending when Mercutio says it. And “star crossed lovers” is a hard concept to explain without using Romeo and Juliet or one of the various couples from art that are based on them or they were based on.
My point is not to get into a discussion on Shakespeare or my person love of classic literature. Rather those things became classics by creeping into the collective subconscious of a society. I just don’t think it helps to try and retard that process from happening. I appreciate not being spoiled as much as the next guy, but at some point if we want things to be accepted we have to be willing to talk about them and examine why they resonate with us as individuals and as a community.
My comments are directed specifically at the idea that anything that is still attracting new readers can’t be discussed. Why wait until no one cares anymore to take a deeper look at a work. Much personal and collective insight can be gained by sharing views on a work in an open exchange with others. I understand the not wanting to give spoilers to things that are brand new. There must however be a point where things can be discussed.
Listening to the epsiode that reviewed GL: New Guardians Annual 1. For a second, I thought Bob was going to give it a more favorable review than I would have (which would have been a first for a DC book), but he didn't it. I thought the story was a hot mess. The plot didn't make a lot of sense and it didn't flow very well. It was a forced 0.1 issue for the new Threshold book. The worst GL story I read in a long long time.
I neither hated nor loved the New Guardians annual, it was just OK. I think the biggest problem is that it is hard to figure out what this issue was.
Did it have anything to do with the ongoing New Guardians story? Sort of, I think what happened with Kyle is pertinent to the ongoing New Guardians story. Is that the main focus of this issue? No not really.
Is what happens with Saint Walker, Star Sapphire and Arkillo pertinent to the ongoing story? Again sort of, while it may or may not have lasting implications, I do think there was some good characterization of the characters and particularly how they work together and relate to each other. Particularly without Kyle to hold them all together.
Was this just a zero issue for Threshold? Again sort of, but not really. While a part of this story takes place with a character or two and a world that will be featured in Threshold I don’t think this issue really set up what that book was going to be either. Personally having read Threshold #1 I’m still not really sure what that book is going to be.
I think a large portion of the dislike of this book was that whatever one may have liked about it felt cut short by the other parts. The book was a little bit of several things and overall not much of anything. To use one of John’s favorite expressions “it was neither fish nor foul”.
Did it have anything to do with the ongoing New Guardians story? Sort of, I think what happened with Kyle is pertinent to the ongoing New Guardians story. Is that the main focus of this issue? No not really.
Is what happens with Saint Walker, Star Sapphire and Arkillo pertinent to the ongoing story? Again sort of, while it may or may not have lasting implications, I do think there was some good characterization of the characters and particularly how they work together and relate to each other. Particularly without Kyle to hold them all together.
Was this just a zero issue for Threshold? Again sort of, but not really. While a part of this story takes place with a character or two and a world that will be featured in Threshold I don’t think this issue really set up what that book was going to be either. Personally having read Threshold #1 I’m still not really sure what that book is going to be.
I think a large portion of the dislike of this book was that whatever one may have liked about it felt cut short by the other parts. The book was a little bit of several things and overall not much of anything. To use one of John’s favorite expressions “it was neither fish nor foul”.
I'm still working my way through the beginning of year crunch with the December 2012 and 2012 year end data crunching, CBR articles and podcast episodes. We've got a round table episode we are working on scheduling that should be a lot of fun.Perseus wrote:Bob and John, I don't mean to derail the topics, but I was wondering if we were gonna see a new Back Issue spotlight anytime soon. I know you guys are busy with life, but I just love those episodes. Seems like no one talks about old comics anymore.
We don't have any Back Issue Spotlight episodes currently in any sort of pre-production phase. Is there anything in particular you think might make for a good one?
JohnMayo wrote:I'm still working my way through the beginning of year crunch with the December 2012 and 2012 year end data crunching, CBR articles and podcast episodes. We've got a round table episode we are working on scheduling that should be a lot of fun.Perseus wrote:Bob and John, I don't mean to derail the topics, but I was wondering if we were gonna see a new Back Issue spotlight anytime soon. I know you guys are busy with life, but I just love those episodes. Seems like no one talks about old comics anymore.
We don't have any Back Issue Spotlight episodes currently in any sort of pre-production phase. Is there anything in particular you think might make for a good one?
John, I actually just look for the back issues you guys come up with alot of the times. I have read some older comics, but I know you and Bob have read tons more of the older stuff than me so I look to you guys alot of times. One thing of interest is maybe some Captain Marvel/Warlock/Thanos related issues?
John and Bob, as always a great episode, thank you gentlemen for providing such a wonderful show!
Listening to the Weekly Comic Spotlight today I found myself wondering about one thing. Does DC as a publisher have their $3.99 books unfairly judged to some degree by almost all comic fans. Don’t get me wrong, I read Threshold #1 and didn’t particularly care for it (I posted a rather mediocre review in the first issue thread), I think the 3 rating and in some ways a low 3 rating is more than justified. Personally I might have even given it a 2. However after the review there was some discussion about GI Combat and DC’s other $3.99 books as a whole. With some feeling that all of them would be better served at $2.99 without a backup feature (Batman being the one exception).
What I did however notice is that the other two books reviewed also were priced at $3.99 and I believe with lower page counts. I read and enjoyed (did not love) High Ways, I did not read Savage Wolverine. Anyway it seem like DC’s $3.99 books get judged particularly harsh by comic fans because they have been so diligent about holding the line at $2.99 or offering extra contend for $3.99. It seems to me books from many publishers get judged on their own merits, and many of those are priced at $3.99, but a $3.99 book from DC has to be extra special just because of the price point. To DC’s credit, there are $2.99 options for Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, the Flash and Aquaman titles while I don’t believe that is the case for Spider-Man, Wolverine, Iron Man, the Hulk or Captain America. Many independent titles from the other publishers Image, Dark Horse, IDW, Dynamite and Boom are also just assumed that $3.99 is the standard price point.
Listening to the Weekly Comic Spotlight today I found myself wondering about one thing. Does DC as a publisher have their $3.99 books unfairly judged to some degree by almost all comic fans. Don’t get me wrong, I read Threshold #1 and didn’t particularly care for it (I posted a rather mediocre review in the first issue thread), I think the 3 rating and in some ways a low 3 rating is more than justified. Personally I might have even given it a 2. However after the review there was some discussion about GI Combat and DC’s other $3.99 books as a whole. With some feeling that all of them would be better served at $2.99 without a backup feature (Batman being the one exception).
What I did however notice is that the other two books reviewed also were priced at $3.99 and I believe with lower page counts. I read and enjoyed (did not love) High Ways, I did not read Savage Wolverine. Anyway it seem like DC’s $3.99 books get judged particularly harsh by comic fans because they have been so diligent about holding the line at $2.99 or offering extra contend for $3.99. It seems to me books from many publishers get judged on their own merits, and many of those are priced at $3.99, but a $3.99 book from DC has to be extra special just because of the price point. To DC’s credit, there are $2.99 options for Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, the Flash and Aquaman titles while I don’t believe that is the case for Spider-Man, Wolverine, Iron Man, the Hulk or Captain America. Many independent titles from the other publishers Image, Dark Horse, IDW, Dynamite and Boom are also just assumed that $3.99 is the standard price point.