When looking at Big Two books, the biggest polarizing factor is changing the creative teams. I am not advocating a house style for art or writing but by shifting the focus to the creators, the big two have made me a buyer who doesn't feel the need to buy any particular character or team. There are ones that I prefer to others, but DC and Marvel have done a good job of making them pretty damn fungible. I now am interesting in how X creator handles the situation. When they change it up, I might stay or I might go. I will always like Spider-man very much but don't need to buy any or all spider-man at any given time. The good news for them is when I like a creator, I will try it. Unfortunately there are only a few must buy creators for me.
For all books, another polarizing factor is access. If my LCS doesn't get it, then I can't buy it. Or if they LCS sells out or misses an issue or Diamond jobs them or the creative team takes a 6 month break or any significant interruption in my access. If I am crazy for the title, I will track it down, but if not, that can be the excuse to cut it loose.
Cross-overs will only cause me to drop if I am on the fence. Usually I will either just continue with the title. Rarely will it cause me to buy the other issues.
Covers are important to me for new books. I won't drop a book because of covers but it can cause me to pick up one. I did not really like the DC 0 issue covers but the sales were great so I am in the minority. I like story related covers.
Recommendations carry quite a bit of weight with me for trying a book (not dropping it). If a book is getting good buzz then I will try it out. It does not need to sell well, just get the good word.
I do sometimes buy stuff for segments for the Marvel Noise podcast (AvX for example but I did not stay with it).
System wide reboots (for Big Two only) recently have had an effect. I bought a few more issues of the new 52 than I did before. I am trying some new Marvel Now books. Some of this is conflating other factors (I like Parker so I am trying the new Marvel Now She-Hulk). With DC, after that first wave, I have only tried a few books from the other waves though so not sure how often that trick will work.
Mayo Report
Moderator: JohnMayo
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BobBretall
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I wish more interior artists were allowed to do the covers of their own books for any publisher. A big contributor to "pin-up cover syndrome" is hiring pin-up artists to do the covers that have no connection to the stories inside the books.Gilgabob wrote:I have become very leary of a book, especially from the smaller publishers, that have a well known cover artist coupled with an unknown interior artist. Red flag for me. I will usually try to find a sample of an interior page before buying a book like that.
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heroesmask
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A couple of responses to the last Comics Mayo Report.
1. I agree with Bob that people that actually pre-order or pay attention to Previews is probably pretty small. I would guess most people show up at the show and buy what they get habitually or what interests them. I don't think an insignificant amount has knowledge of what's going on in comics from cbr, newsarama, bleeding cool, podcasts, etc. I order from previews and pay close attention to a lot of news but I think that's a small minority. I know or talk to more people that don't pre-order or have a pull list than do.
2. On the discussion of new number ones and diminishing returns. I think the constant relaunch is a way to get that 2-3 month cream off the top. If a high profile title for example is at 50k in it's run. A high profile mutli incentive cover relaunch yields around 100k for issue one, then standard drop offs for issues 2-X. Eventually or soon it goes back down to the level it was previously at before the relaunch or slightly below, for those several months they see big money. Multiply that out and it makes sense. Whether that's a good strategy in the long run or not who knows.
3. You guys also mentioned double shipping. For me I feel it cannibalizes overall sales. I have a somewhat fixed budget. When the X-titles double ship it leaves less money for Avengers, or Hulk, or Iron Man or whatever. So I expose myself to less of the line. Then when the book doesn't double ship that month, I'm already out of the habit of buying the other books so I just don't get them.
4. The other thing I think that hurts books is everything is a line. X-Men is a line, THor is a line, Avengers, Hulk, etc. Most comic buyers I think have that collector gene. They like to know all of what's going on. So I stay away from Hulk because I don't want to buy 4 Hulk books. Marvel will say that you don't have to buy them all. But, inevitably they will have a crossover that will be unreadable unless you bought them all. So I stay away. I would think that 1 Hulk book with 70k would be more profitable than 2 Hulk books at 35k each.
4. I've picked on Marvel quite a bit but they are not alone in these methods, especially number 3 above. Also John mentioned that Marvel is relaunching titles before they get to twenty. DC, while not relaunching, will probably have few titles that get to number 20 in several months. I think the era of the long run is over. I think very few titles will get to 100 issues these days before getting renumbered or relaunched or both. Honestly that policy is pushing me to digital. I pride myself on a collection of comics with long runs (Uncanny X-Men from 139 - End), etc. The physical collection means less to me overall. It's more about reading the story.
1. I agree with Bob that people that actually pre-order or pay attention to Previews is probably pretty small. I would guess most people show up at the show and buy what they get habitually or what interests them. I don't think an insignificant amount has knowledge of what's going on in comics from cbr, newsarama, bleeding cool, podcasts, etc. I order from previews and pay close attention to a lot of news but I think that's a small minority. I know or talk to more people that don't pre-order or have a pull list than do.
2. On the discussion of new number ones and diminishing returns. I think the constant relaunch is a way to get that 2-3 month cream off the top. If a high profile title for example is at 50k in it's run. A high profile mutli incentive cover relaunch yields around 100k for issue one, then standard drop offs for issues 2-X. Eventually or soon it goes back down to the level it was previously at before the relaunch or slightly below, for those several months they see big money. Multiply that out and it makes sense. Whether that's a good strategy in the long run or not who knows.
3. You guys also mentioned double shipping. For me I feel it cannibalizes overall sales. I have a somewhat fixed budget. When the X-titles double ship it leaves less money for Avengers, or Hulk, or Iron Man or whatever. So I expose myself to less of the line. Then when the book doesn't double ship that month, I'm already out of the habit of buying the other books so I just don't get them.
4. The other thing I think that hurts books is everything is a line. X-Men is a line, THor is a line, Avengers, Hulk, etc. Most comic buyers I think have that collector gene. They like to know all of what's going on. So I stay away from Hulk because I don't want to buy 4 Hulk books. Marvel will say that you don't have to buy them all. But, inevitably they will have a crossover that will be unreadable unless you bought them all. So I stay away. I would think that 1 Hulk book with 70k would be more profitable than 2 Hulk books at 35k each.
4. I've picked on Marvel quite a bit but they are not alone in these methods, especially number 3 above. Also John mentioned that Marvel is relaunching titles before they get to twenty. DC, while not relaunching, will probably have few titles that get to number 20 in several months. I think the era of the long run is over. I think very few titles will get to 100 issues these days before getting renumbered or relaunched or both. Honestly that policy is pushing me to digital. I pride myself on a collection of comics with long runs (Uncanny X-Men from 139 - End), etc. The physical collection means less to me overall. It's more about reading the story.
Enjoyed the latest report as always and the reference to the Hibbs article was interesting reading. I would not have found that but for this. Thanks.
It may just be the LA market and it may not change anything but I thought I would note that out here, many of the stores have common ownership. This may make the divining of accounts and stores tricky.
The two new stores that opened this year where both from existing stores (even though the names do not always directly indicate as such). Plenty of the stores do share a common name which helps link them together. Not sure if they share the same diamond account or if they split it. There are about 4 off the top of my head that I can name with 2 locations. Earth 2 and Collector's Paradise both share the customer data (I have bought at both of them so get emails from them which just list both locations. Usually sales are one are sales at both but not always).
However there are a few stores out here I know that stock a few comics but they are primarily toys, games and other collectibles with just a small amount of comics. I always marvel how they stay in business given that they cover such a wide array of hobbies. These are places that just have maybe 10 or 20 different titles and maybe the same again in trades/OGNs.
Not sure if you want to call them stores when discussing the total of LCS or if you count Earth 2's location in Sherman Oaks and up in Northridge as 2 stores or 1. I would think 2 but they could be one Diamond account. To be fair the common ownership stores are far enough apart to require a car to visit them but still LA area. I would not be surprised if more stores shared common ownership that was not advertised.
While I am interested in how many stores there are, I would be most interested in how many readers there are out there. Is it less than 1 million? How much do we all read? I have not observed too many people at the stores that I go to that buy at John Mayo levels but I would think that most people buy at least a few titles. I just can't see too many people making the effort to go to the store for 1 title a month (and at least out here the back issue selections usually stink).
That is where I am not sure if Hibbs' idea to just cut the under 30K Marvel and DC books works. If the average customer needs at least say 5 titles a month to bother coming to the store and they are reading 6 titles now. If canning those 30K and under titles drops enough of the customers below 5 favorites (and you can't get them to spend that money on other stuff) than you risk them leaving comics. Not dramatically but just slowing fading out. There is always some apathy. I have had instances like that but end up coming back. This is packed with too many assumptions but they seem to make some sense. Seems like it would be tough to generalize what a store should do as isn't it dependant on your market? Seems like lots of different styles of LCS in LA but not work in other markets.
It may just be the LA market and it may not change anything but I thought I would note that out here, many of the stores have common ownership. This may make the divining of accounts and stores tricky.
The two new stores that opened this year where both from existing stores (even though the names do not always directly indicate as such). Plenty of the stores do share a common name which helps link them together. Not sure if they share the same diamond account or if they split it. There are about 4 off the top of my head that I can name with 2 locations. Earth 2 and Collector's Paradise both share the customer data (I have bought at both of them so get emails from them which just list both locations. Usually sales are one are sales at both but not always).
However there are a few stores out here I know that stock a few comics but they are primarily toys, games and other collectibles with just a small amount of comics. I always marvel how they stay in business given that they cover such a wide array of hobbies. These are places that just have maybe 10 or 20 different titles and maybe the same again in trades/OGNs.
Not sure if you want to call them stores when discussing the total of LCS or if you count Earth 2's location in Sherman Oaks and up in Northridge as 2 stores or 1. I would think 2 but they could be one Diamond account. To be fair the common ownership stores are far enough apart to require a car to visit them but still LA area. I would not be surprised if more stores shared common ownership that was not advertised.
While I am interested in how many stores there are, I would be most interested in how many readers there are out there. Is it less than 1 million? How much do we all read? I have not observed too many people at the stores that I go to that buy at John Mayo levels but I would think that most people buy at least a few titles. I just can't see too many people making the effort to go to the store for 1 title a month (and at least out here the back issue selections usually stink).
That is where I am not sure if Hibbs' idea to just cut the under 30K Marvel and DC books works. If the average customer needs at least say 5 titles a month to bother coming to the store and they are reading 6 titles now. If canning those 30K and under titles drops enough of the customers below 5 favorites (and you can't get them to spend that money on other stuff) than you risk them leaving comics. Not dramatically but just slowing fading out. There is always some apathy. I have had instances like that but end up coming back. This is packed with too many assumptions but they seem to make some sense. Seems like it would be tough to generalize what a store should do as isn't it dependant on your market? Seems like lots of different styles of LCS in LA but not work in other markets.
Last edited by LA Rabbit on Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
LA Rabbit
I would consider distinct physical store fronts as different "stores" even if they are part of a chain. While ownership plays into how many Diamond accounts there are, I don't think that really impacts sales much. It can impact profitability since those store fronts under common ownership get a deeper discount that the individual store fronts might get without the common ownership and therefore were different Diamond accounts.
Thank you John, Bob and Chris for doing these always entertaining episodes!
I did have a comment on something that was said on the Comics episode. Bob used Daredevil and Daredevil: End of Days as examples of why telling good stories doesn’t work to increase sales. There are two different ways to look at this comment.
A. Daredevil: End of Days is getting a certain amount of “undeserved sales” bases on the story quality.
B. Daredevil: has earned higher sales than the lower sales it is currently getting.
As to A I have not read the book so I have no opinion, I do however trust Bob so my suspicion is that this is not a very good book
B is much more interesting and I think Daredevil has earned these low sales. Not that I think this current run of Daredevil is bad, again I haven’t read it. The why I haven’t read it, I feel is important to this discussion. I read the last version of Daredevil from the Marvel Knights #1 issue all the way till it got renumbered to #500 after #119. I wasn’t thrilled with the renumber but suck with the title until #507. Then came Shadow Land, I stopped reading Daredevil at this point. While I didn’t read it, I heard the book then became a Black Panther book. Then came the New #1 for the current run referenced here. Within the last 3 years or so we have seen Daredevil renumbered, a cross-over that put out 8 issues in the first month alone, a change of title character and another new relaunch. That was four gimmicks that turned me off to the title in an 8-12 month span. While I have heard many good things of the current Daredevil title I still don’t trust the publisher. If I continue to hear good things and the title stays consistent through issue #30 or so, I will consider picking up a trade. If I like that trade it is possible I would pick up the next couple of trade ands start reading the book monthly again. However at this point I think what you considered low sales to be completely earned. Earned by gimmicks and terrible story telling, you can’t undo that instantly (at least not for me).
I did have a comment on something that was said on the Comics episode. Bob used Daredevil and Daredevil: End of Days as examples of why telling good stories doesn’t work to increase sales. There are two different ways to look at this comment.
A. Daredevil: End of Days is getting a certain amount of “undeserved sales” bases on the story quality.
B. Daredevil: has earned higher sales than the lower sales it is currently getting.
As to A I have not read the book so I have no opinion, I do however trust Bob so my suspicion is that this is not a very good book
B is much more interesting and I think Daredevil has earned these low sales. Not that I think this current run of Daredevil is bad, again I haven’t read it. The why I haven’t read it, I feel is important to this discussion. I read the last version of Daredevil from the Marvel Knights #1 issue all the way till it got renumbered to #500 after #119. I wasn’t thrilled with the renumber but suck with the title until #507. Then came Shadow Land, I stopped reading Daredevil at this point. While I didn’t read it, I heard the book then became a Black Panther book. Then came the New #1 for the current run referenced here. Within the last 3 years or so we have seen Daredevil renumbered, a cross-over that put out 8 issues in the first month alone, a change of title character and another new relaunch. That was four gimmicks that turned me off to the title in an 8-12 month span. While I have heard many good things of the current Daredevil title I still don’t trust the publisher. If I continue to hear good things and the title stays consistent through issue #30 or so, I will consider picking up a trade. If I like that trade it is possible I would pick up the next couple of trade ands start reading the book monthly again. However at this point I think what you considered low sales to be completely earned. Earned by gimmicks and terrible story telling, you can’t undo that instantly (at least not for me).
Bob didn't care for Daredevil: End of Days #1 when we reviewed in on Weekly Comics Spotlight #269 and he liked Daredevil #17 when we reviewed it on Weekly Comics Spotlight #262. His assertion was that wat he (or any one of us) might consider "good storytelling" often isn't reflected by the sales numbers. As such, I think Bob was asserting both that Daredevil: End of Days got a certain amount of “undeserved sales” bases on the story quality and that Daredevil deserved higher sales than the sales it is currently getting.fudd71 wrote:Bob used Daredevil and Daredevil: End of Days as examples of why telling good stories doesn’t work to increase sales. There are two different ways to look at this comment.
A. Daredevil: End of Days is getting a certain amount of “undeserved sales” bases on the story quality.
B. Daredevil: has earned higher sales than the lower sales it is currently getting.
As to A I have not read the book so I have no opinion, I do however trust Bob so my suspicion is that this is not a very good book
B is much more interesting and I think Daredevil has earned these low sales. Not that I think this current run of Daredevil is bad, again I haven’t read it. The why I haven’t read it, I feel is important to this discussion. I read the last version of Daredevil from the Marvel Knights #1 issue all the way till it got renumbered to #500 after #119. I wasn’t thrilled with the renumber but suck with the title until #507. Then came Shadow Land, I stopped reading Daredevil at this point. While I didn’t read it, I heard the book then became a Black Panther book. Then came the New #1 for the current run referenced here. Within the last 3 years or so we have seen Daredevil renumbered, a cross-over that put out 8 issues in the first month alone, a change of title character and another new relaunch. That was four gimmicks that turned me off to the title in an 8-12 month span. While I have heard many good things of the current Daredevil title I still don’t trust the publisher. If I continue to hear good things and the title stays consistent through issue #30 or so, I will consider picking up a trade. If I like that trade it is possible I would pick up the next couple of trade ands start reading the book monthly again. However at this point I think what you considered low sales to be completely earned. Earned by gimmicks and terrible story telling, you can’t undo that instantly (at least not for me).
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BobBretall
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Yes, I think that End of Days is selling better than it deserves while the main DD is selling less, based purely on my subjective judgement of the story quality in each.JohnMayo wrote:As such, I think Bob was asserting both that Daredevil: End of Days got a certain amount of “undeserved sales” bases on the story quality and that Daredevil deserved higher sales than the sales it is currently getting.
Sam makes a good point, though, about how Marvel made the entire Daredevil franchise radioactive for him for some indeterminate period of time due to all the various changes & renumberings.
The current series by Mark Waid may be suffering due to factors completely out of their control and that exactly makes my point. Just telling a good story is not enough. Many other factors besides story quality affect why a book does or does not sell.
That said, I'm sure there are exceptions to every rule.
I think it is a fair point to make that Daredevil has long been established as a mid-tier character. There may have been relative highs in the past, but in general the book has always stayed around where it is.BobBretall wrote:Yes, I think that End of Days is selling better than it deserves while the main DD is selling less, based purely on my subjective judgement of the story quality in each.JohnMayo wrote:As such, I think Bob was asserting both that Daredevil: End of Days got a certain amount of “undeserved sales” bases on the story quality and that Daredevil deserved higher sales than the sales it is currently getting.
Sam makes a good point, though, about how Marvel made the entire Daredevil franchise radioactive for him for some indeterminate period of time due to all the various changes & renumberings.
The current series by Mark Waid may be suffering due to factors completely out of their control and that exactly makes my point. Just telling a good story is not enough. Many other factors besides story quality affect why a book does or does not sell.
That said, I'm sure there are exceptions to every rule.
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the1captain
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I had just read Hibb's article so it was interesting to hear you guys talk about it. About Marvel's mid to lower selling books. Is it possible that Marvel puts these out as a way to crowd out other books in the store? Shops only have so much shelf space and/or money towards trying new material. If it came down to buying a couple of copies of a new Marvel book with a little known character and/or creative team verses an indie book that might have an interesting concept but is an unknown quantity. At the end of the end most retailers with go with Marvel if only for the brand recognition.
Also another way Marvel and DC can argue why they put out so much material even though they are not huge sellers. With Disney owning Marvel and Warner taking a harder look at DC, as in rebranding it as DC entertainment, these companies have become a research and development for their owners. Throwing out a wide net trying to see what gains interest not so much for huge sales. But rather a character or story that Disney and Warners can develop into some other more profitable concept in some other media.
Not saying I agree with these business strategies. And maybe that's not what they are going for. But I'm guessing Warners makes much more money off Batman related merchandise then what DC brings them from the books. Same goes for Spiderman at Marvel.
Also another way Marvel and DC can argue why they put out so much material even though they are not huge sellers. With Disney owning Marvel and Warner taking a harder look at DC, as in rebranding it as DC entertainment, these companies have become a research and development for their owners. Throwing out a wide net trying to see what gains interest not so much for huge sales. But rather a character or story that Disney and Warners can develop into some other more profitable concept in some other media.
Not saying I agree with these business strategies. And maybe that's not what they are going for. But I'm guessing Warners makes much more money off Batman related merchandise then what DC brings them from the books. Same goes for Spiderman at Marvel.
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BobBretall
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I finally took the time to read the Tilting at Windmills column that started a lot of this discussion. While the point that Marvel or DC books selling under 5 copies in a store are not profitable seems possible, there is a flaw in logic with the assertion that it only applies to Marvel and DC and not other publishers. Because of discounting rates and total volume one could argue a big two book selling 5 copies in a store is more profitable (or less of a loss) then an indie book selling 5 copies.
One of the assertions made in the article is that stores like Mr. Hibbs’ essentially run a charity for indie publishers and creators funded by the large profits off big two books. Blaming the big two for not being profitable enough to run this charity system is a ridiculous claim.
If a storeowner finds that it is not profitable to carry any book that doesn’t sell more than five copies in their store, so be it. But the publisher of said book is irrelevant. Mr. Hibbs’ call to simply not publish any book selling on average under 30K nationwide may or may not be a good idea. However, if it is a good idea it is a good idea for all, not just the big two. Looking at the last sales estimate that means a lot of Marvel and DC books would be cancelled, but it also means all but 2 books from all other publishers should be cancelled immediately too.
Based on what I see on the sales estimate charts the list dips bellow 30K after rank 85 (Justice League Dark #13). There are only two non-Marvel or non-DC books above this rank, and both are Walking Dead. Those would be Walking Dead Michonne Special at rank 39 and Walking Dead #103 at rank 9. If you belief Mr. Hibbs’ premise that all books under 30K should be cancelled you must believe it for all titles not just big two.
The idea that certain publishers should help subsidize the others is crazy!
One of the assertions made in the article is that stores like Mr. Hibbs’ essentially run a charity for indie publishers and creators funded by the large profits off big two books. Blaming the big two for not being profitable enough to run this charity system is a ridiculous claim.
If a storeowner finds that it is not profitable to carry any book that doesn’t sell more than five copies in their store, so be it. But the publisher of said book is irrelevant. Mr. Hibbs’ call to simply not publish any book selling on average under 30K nationwide may or may not be a good idea. However, if it is a good idea it is a good idea for all, not just the big two. Looking at the last sales estimate that means a lot of Marvel and DC books would be cancelled, but it also means all but 2 books from all other publishers should be cancelled immediately too.
Based on what I see on the sales estimate charts the list dips bellow 30K after rank 85 (Justice League Dark #13). There are only two non-Marvel or non-DC books above this rank, and both are Walking Dead. Those would be Walking Dead Michonne Special at rank 39 and Walking Dead #103 at rank 9. If you belief Mr. Hibbs’ premise that all books under 30K should be cancelled you must believe it for all titles not just big two.
The idea that certain publishers should help subsidize the others is crazy!
Given the lower discounts on the smaller publishers, retailers need to sell more copies for those titles to be as profitable as titles they get at a higher discount. Ironically, these tend to be the lower selling titles. Just one of the many ways in which the current comic book marketplace favors the already successful.fudd71 wrote:While the point that Marvel or DC books selling under 5 copies in a store are not profitable seems possible, there is a flaw in logic with the assertion that it only applies to Marvel and DC and not other publishers. Because of discounting rates and total volume one could argue a big two book selling 5 copies in a store is more profitable (or less of a loss) then an indie book selling 5 copies.
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BobBretall
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That's the problem with averages. Some indie books sell WAY more than 5 copies. But that's only in stores that bother to carry them. Very strong "Chicken & Egg" thing going on. If an LCS does not carry an indie book then their customers won't know it exists and surely won't buy it. BUT some LCS customers are so entrenched in the Big 2 that it's a hard sell for any Indie book regardless of quality.fudd71 wrote: Because of discounting rates and total volume one could argue a big two book selling 5 copies in a store is more profitable (or less of a loss) then an indie book selling 5 copies.
One of the assertions made in the article is that stores like Mr. Hibbs’ essentially run a charity for indie publishers and creators funded by the large profits off big two books. Blaming the big two for not being profitable enough to run this charity system is a ridiculous claim.
I think some shops tend to specialize in the Indies stuff, people who are into that stuff frequent those shops, and those shops that make up (at a guess I'd say between 10-20% of all shops) are the ones doing the majority of the Indie sales.
So if 300 shops are selling 5,000 copies of an Indie book then they're each selling about 16 copies.
The lack of an LCS that carries a full line of the stuff people want to read will either drive them out of the hobby or drive them to on-line retailers like DCBS where they can get ANYTHING that is published via Diamond & not be shackled by what shop-keepers like Hibbs deign to put on the racks. Sure, they can have a pull list with Hibbs and owners like him, but if I have to pre-order instead of browsing the racks, I'll take the discount I can get on-line.