DC to Cancel "First Wave" line

BobBretall · Post by **BobBretall** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:21 pm

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/02/23/ ... ncel-line/

I'm not surprised by this news at all.

I'll personally miss the Spirit the most.

Doc Savage started off (1st arc) really not to my liking and has been OK starting in arc 2, but I suspect most people who dropped it never came back to give it a 2nd chance. Even so, from my own experience, it's not knocking it out of the park, I am hanging on just because I'm a huge Doc Savage fan.

First Wave itself has been plagued by a really slow publishing schedule. While the book is good, there is zero momentum on it due to the gaps between issues.

comicm · Post by **comicm** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:37 pm

Wow DC is canceling things left and right. I will miss this line because it did ofter something different.

BobBretall · Post by **BobBretall** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:36 am

comicm wrote:Wow DC is canceling things left and right. I will miss this line because it did ofter something different.

It's funny how people say they want something different, but when "different" comes along it sure doesn't sell very well.

In DC's case the only "different" that seems to sell in another "different" Batman title.

spid · Post by **spid** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:15 am

BobBretall wrote:
comicm wrote:Wow DC is canceling things left and right. I will miss this line because it did ofter something different.
It's funny how people say they want something different, but when "different" comes along it sure doesn't sell very well.

In DC's case the only "different" that seems to sell in another "different" Batman title.

This is one of things that kind of annoys me when people attack DC or Marvel for being super hero heavy. When they offer something else the market does not support it.

BobBretall · Post by **BobBretall** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:35 am

spid wrote: This is one of things that kind of annoys me when people attack DC or Marvel for being super hero heavy. When they offer something else the market does not support it.

To be fair, the First Wave books were what I'd consider super-hero books, just not in the core DC continuity.

That said, books like Simon Dark & Gotham Central (that were NOT super-heroes) didn't survive either.

It seems to me that if a book has a DC logo in the upper left corner, then in order to sell well it needs to not only have core DC super-heroes, but well-established ones, at that.

Not only do people (by & large) avoid attempts at non-core-continuity books, but they also tend to skip things like REBELS, Outsiders, Freedom Force, etc. that are more "fringe" characters.

stardog · Post by **stardog** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:49 am

I was really interested in this line. I had never read Doc Savage, and only knew the Spirit from Cooke's run, but the whole concept excited me. Unfortunately DC really dropped the ball here. As Bob said, the First Wave series really lost momentum with the scheduling problems. I bought the first 5 issues and read them, but I am thinking about skipping #6. I have enough to read as it is, and I have a hard time remembering what's happening every time a new one comes out. I just don't feel like rereading the first 5, although I guess I could get any needed info online (not a big fan of following a story that way, though).

With Doc Savage, the first couple of issues were bad in every way, and while I tried it again when Brandon and Azzarello came on, it just didn't grab me and I dropped it again.

And even the Spirit, which has been good, went through a couple of writers (and I think a 3rd is coming on for the end). I stopped after the first arc, disappointed that the writer was already leaving, and I'm sure others did the same. I did try it again and I'm enjoying it, but it wasn't a smooth launch either.

Anyway, I do agree with the point about readers not being open to new characters and concepts, and this universe was probably in trouble regardless, but DC didn't really give it a legitimate chance.

BobBretall · Post by **BobBretall** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:30 am

stardog wrote: With Doc Savage, the first couple of issues were bad in every way, and while I tried it again when Brandon and Azzarello came on, it just didn't grab me and I dropped it again.

I read the reprints of the Doc Savage pulps as Bantam paperbacks in the 70s/80s when I was in High School & college and loved them.

They were not "fixed" to appeal to me as a modern (at the time) audience.

The incarnations of Doc that have failed have all tried to update the character, none have (in my opinion) really leveraged/captured what made him cool in the 1st place. If you take a character that worked in the 30s/40s, worked again in the 70s/80s with zero changes, and then have a lot of failed versions where you are continually monkeying around with the character, maybe you have a "if it's not broke, don't fix it" scenario.

Just tell those stories, and tell them well..... (heck, people like Indiana Jones, and that's a "period" piece)

stardog · Post by **stardog** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:01 pm

BobBretall wrote:

I read the reprints of the Doc Savage pulps as Bantam paperbacks in the 70s/80s when I was in High School & college and loved them.

They were not "fixed" to appeal to me as a modern (at the time) audience.

The incarnations of Doc that have failed have all tried to update the character, none have (in my opinion) really leveraged/captured what made him cool in the 1st place. If you take a character that worked in the 30s/40s, worked again in the 70s/80s with zero changes, and then have a lot of failed versions where you are continually monkeying around with the character, maybe you have a "if it's not broke, don't fix it" scenario.

Just tell those stories, and tell them well..... (heck, people like Indiana Jones, and that's a "period" piece)

Yeah, great point with Indiana Jones. Who doesn't love Indiana Jones, and those movies still stand up today.

You know, they did seem to get Doc right in the Batman/Doc Savage special that kicked off First Wave. (I say "seem" since I haven't read the older material) If I remember correctly, you guys talked about that book and gave it a very favorable review. I thought it was excellent, too. There seemed to be so much more to Doc in that issue than we ever got in the ongoing.

BobBretall · Post by **BobBretall** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:37 pm

stardog wrote: You know, they did seem to get Doc right in the Batman/Doc Savage special that kicked off First Wave. (I say "seem" since I haven't read the older material) If I remember correctly, you guys talked about that book and gave it a very favorable review. I thought it was excellent, too. There seemed to be so much more to Doc in that issue than we ever got in the ongoing.

Azarello did an OK Doc in First Wave, nothing to object to. Hard to really get the real "flavor" of Doc in that book with so many other characters, though.

Doc's solo book was far less reflective of Doc.

HassanT · Post by **HassanT** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:52 am

spid wrote:
BobBretall wrote:
comicm wrote:Wow DC is canceling things left and right. I will miss this line because it did ofter something different.
It's funny how people say they want something different, but when "different" comes along it sure doesn't sell very well.

In DC's case the only "different" that seems to sell in another "different" Batman title.
This is one of things that kind of annoys me when people attack DC or Marvel for being super hero heavy. When they offer something else the market does not support it.

Honestly, I understand why it failed. The main book to launch the line has been delayed forever. The Doc Savage book first arc was not good. When you launch a new line, you really can't screw up at the beginning.

comicm · Post by **comicm** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:37 am

Having never read Doc Savage I liked the first story arc. It was that second story arc with the Siamese twins that I did not like or understand. So if the second story arc is more reflective of Doc Savage maybe I won't like his comics.

I know there is one other podcaster that dropped the book because he liked the first story arc but did not understand the second.

BobBretall · Post by **BobBretall** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:31 pm

comicm wrote:Having never read Doc Savage I liked the first story arc. It was that second story arc with the Siamese twins that I did not like or understand. So if the second story arc is more reflective of Doc Savage maybe I won't like his comics.

I know there is one other podcaster that dropped the book because he liked the first story arc but did not understand the second.

The 2nd arc was better than the 1st (to me) kind of the way a slap in the face is better than getting stabbed in the eye. Neither are really reflective of the Doc Savage in the books.

In my opinion, Doc has NEVER been captured properly in comics.

That said, if you like the Doc in the 1st arc, you'll likely be out of luck looking for that version of Doc in other comics. If you find that character, it's not really Doc Savage anyway.

I'm thinking it's maybe best for comics to just leave Doc alone. They don't capture the character in the pulps when they try to "upgrade" the character, and the upgrades don't really satisfy most modern comics readers either, so they're kind of a lose-lose.

comicman66 · Post by **comicman66** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:53 pm

And J.G. Jones was just going to take over the writing for Doc Savage. I was looking forward to seeing the writing chops (love his art). Oh well. You think they would have cancelled it BEFORE he started.